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Matthew Lloyd

  • Total Karma: 0
Par 4s without bunkers
« on: July 07, 2014, 02:18:09 PM »
From an aesthetic perspective, I find par 4s that manage to be really difficult despite having no bunkers very appealing. The greens are frequently diabolical, and the approach shots demand great accuracy. Every time I play a hole that fits these criteria, I start wishing there were more of them.  But then it occurs to me that a large part of the appeal of these holes -- at least for me -- is that they're rare and have to be selected carefully and designed/built with a lot of precision.

From TV, my favorite example is #14 at Augusta, which always seems to play harder than the more visually intimidating holes on the back nine.

What are some other great examples of this design strategy? 

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SL_Solow

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2014, 02:23:12 PM »
Foxy
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Mike Policano

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2014, 02:38:11 PM »
Ridgewood CC in NJ has a number of holes with no fairway bunkers

4 And 8 East

2,3 and 9 Center

1 and 9 West
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Ben Hollerbach

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2014, 02:42:33 PM »
I love bunkerless holes and would agree that their rarity help them stand out and often make the player not notice the hole is bunkerless. Two of my favorite are the 4th and 5th at Asheville CC. This past spring I was playing with two other players on their first round there and after the round I asked them if they could remember which two holes did not have a bunker, neither of them could pick them out. To me that's the mark of a well designed hole, where hazards like bunkers don't define the challenge.
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Phil McDade

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2014, 04:12:00 PM »
The 8th at Ozaukee CC in suburban Milwaukee, a Langford-Moreau design with a terrific, gently rising par 4 8th that features an enormous, triple-tiered green.
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Brett Wiesley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2014, 04:19:34 PM »
13th at Cuscowilla, with a great green.  Gonna be something when the Ultradwarf Bermuda greens grow in.
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Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2014, 04:57:54 PM »
12th at Kingsley.  Perhaps the most demanding driving hole on the course with the big hill covered with native on the right and the woods and OB left.  455 from the tips so a mid iron or more is required on approach for all but the long hitters and the green isn't particularly receptive with everything sloping towards the gully on the right.  
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David_Tepper

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2014, 04:59:24 PM »
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 05:27:02 PM by David_Tepper »
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Ben Hollerbach

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2014, 05:13:51 PM »
Ballybunion Old 7th and 11th

Fishers Island 4th and 10th
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Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: 5
Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2014, 05:15:56 PM »
Yale 14
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Paul Gray

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2014, 05:19:14 PM »
Not forgetting the whole of Royal Ashdown Forest.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2014, 05:19:46 PM »
The 5th hole at Hidden Creek
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Bryan Icenhower

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2014, 07:02:34 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on July 07, 2014, 05:19:46 PM
The 5th hole at Hidden Creek

Was going to post the exact hole, but that being said, it's one of my least favorite holes on a great course filled with holes I really really like.
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Ryan Coles

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2014, 07:09:07 PM »
There was a county player around here getting ready to start the season who spent all of March practicing from sand in anticipation of the first event of the year. The bunkers are like nothing you've ever seen they said. Whatever you do, practice your bunker play they said. He did little else for a month.

He missed the cut in the Berkhamstead Trophy that year.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2014, 07:18:32 PM »
Quote from: Ryan Coles on July 07, 2014, 07:09:07 PM
There was a county player around here getting ready to start the season who spent all of March practicing from sand in anticipation of the first event of the year. The bunkers are like nothing you've ever seen they said. Whatever you do, practice your bunker play they said. He did little else for a month.

He missed the cut in the Berkhamstead Trophy that year.

Now that's funny.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ryan Bass

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2014, 07:20:11 PM »
Victoria National GC hole 6.  Longest par 4 on the course.  The green is very large, has three tiers divided by massive strategic contouring and is somewhat amenable to a run-up approach shot.  The fairway is generous.  One of my favorite holes on the course.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2014, 07:25:30 PM »
Quote from: Bryan Icenhower on July 07, 2014, 07:02:34 PM
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on July 07, 2014, 05:19:46 PM

The 5th hole at Hidden Creek

Was going to post the exact hole, but that being said, it's one of my least favorite holes on a great course filled with holes I really really like.

Bryan,

Why do you feel that way ?

While the drive is to a wide fairway, a drive to the wrong side leaves you semi-blind.

And that huge, long green is pretty interesting.

It's certainly a departure from the other holes.

Mike Policano.

Greenside bunkers count.

When are you going to make a date with us.
Where are you ?
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Ronald Montesano

  • Total Karma: -42
Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2014, 07:46:27 PM »
Grover Cleveland #5

Grover Cleveland #14

Grover Cleveland #15

These are all amazing holes for strategy. All in Buffalo. If you play them even par on a windy day, you are doing something!
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Matthew Petersen

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2014, 08:00:27 PM »
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Keith Phillips

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2014, 08:02:55 PM »
3 of 2 and 6 of 2 at Montclair Golf Club in New Jersey - no fairway or greenside bunkers, but indeed diabolical greens!
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BCrosby

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2014, 09:06:27 PM »
8th at Crab Apple (Capital City). Par 4 with a raised green. Maybe best hole on the course.

Bob
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2014, 10:52:44 PM »
Quote from: Keith Phillips on July 07, 2014, 08:02:55 PM

3 of 2 and 6 of 2 at Montclair Golf Club in New Jersey - no fairway or greenside bunkers, but indeed diabolical greens!

Keith,

Both "domed" Donald Ross greens  ;D

# 3 of 2 was always a very difficult hole.
That's a tiny green and you don't get much roll on your tee shot.
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mike_beene

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2014, 11:02:51 PM »
I and 18 of the Old Course are unique to say the least.The Valley of Sin is more interesting than a bunker would be.The burn is what it is and makes for an interesting start.
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Bryan Icenhower

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Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2014, 11:38:27 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on July 07, 2014, 07:25:30 PM
Quote from: Bryan Icenhower on July 07, 2014, 07:02:34 PM
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on July 07, 2014, 05:19:46 PM

The 5th hole at Hidden Creek

Was going to post the exact hole, but that being said, it's one of my least favorite holes on a great course filled with holes I really really like.

Bryan,

Why do you feel that way ?

While the drive is to a wide fairway, a drive to the wrong side leaves you semi-blind.

And that huge, long green is pretty interesting.

It's certainly a departure from the other holes.

Mike Policano.

Greenside bunkers count.

When are you going to make a date with us.
Where are you ?
For two reasons, 1 you point out - its such a departure from the other holes.  The second reason is the three trees to the right, they stand out as not belonging and arbitrarily planted to my eye.

The semi-blind really means nothing due to how long the green is as you point out - you are just looking to put it on the green.  I am a big fan of the green complex and surrounds.  And it is comes after 2-3-4 which is sucha great stretch.  I am -2 for the last 5 plays on the hole, -1 (2x) from position A, even from blind fairway (1x) and -1 from the right rough (2x). 

And my not being a fan of the hole of course has nothing to do with it being bunkerless. 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 12:14:38 AM by Bryan Icenhower »
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Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Par 4s without bunkers
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2014, 11:59:22 PM »
County Louth 14th
Victoria Club  16th
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