TPC Old White Architecture

[Lester George]

Gents,

Too much here for me to list but here goes:

Each year since 2010 (The first Greenbrier Classic) I have provided "production notes to my friends at the Golf Channel, CBS, and others on the restoration of The Old White.  We get together each year at Kinloch or Ballyhack (or, in the case of this year, both) for fun and discuss the CBM/Raynor architecture which they really like.  That is why they sound fresh in their commentary.  They continuously update their notes.

Prior to the inaugural event in 2010, the course was lengthened by me (with "help" from the PGA Tour) to 7,021 yards.  The course was set up easy (marginal rough) and it rained on Saturday night, allowing Appleby's 59 in the final round.  Since there have been a handful of holes lengthened again.

In 1914, Raynor had the 14th hole as "Cape" and 16th as "Narrows".  The hole names were switched after the war for some reason.  When I restored the course, the owners rep (and I) felt we could leave the switch as is because we weren't convinced we should use George Bahto's rationale for the Cape hole description he championed.  Right or wrong, I felt the holes left by me are much more accurate that the ones we started with.  Just for clarification, I designed a new lake configuration in 2009 that put the green on a "cape" of land with lake on the right and Howards creek on the left.  Never got to build it. 

Tom Doak is right, I added back the "dragons teeth" (from scratch) on the 5th hole ("mounds")  based on a written description we found during our research.  We discovered a picture of the 5th hole after the restoration that showed us we were close (in concept) so we were pleased. 

I believe with Raynors understanding of templates he would have named the 5th Leven if it had any resemblance, he did not.

I know number 2 has never been a par five.  Again, it was lengthened (along with 5, 8, 11, 13 and 17) to get to 7,200 yards.  The course would hold up fine if the PGA tour would grow the rough and stop overwatering it.  Number 6 was never a par five for the scratch player, but may have been for the less accomplished resort guest.

Lester



 

[Jud_T]

Lester,

Thanks.  I was just wondering if there had never been any par 5s on the front or if that was something done later to protect par.  Kind of cool if, in fact, there never were any.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lester,

I'd love to learn more as I intend to play "Old White" before the summer ends.

[Nigel Islam]

Lester, I think it is one of the better courses they play on tour. Thanks for your part in bringing it back to prominence.

[ward peyronnin]

What a great opportunity Lester and kudo's for a job well done. Did you have to promote a restoration goal of a return to the original or was that the owner's aim from the beginning?

[Wade Whitehead]

Non-architecture guys make more comments about the architecture of the Old White than the architecture of any other course on Tour.

WW

[Jim Franklin]

I have played th eOld White 20 plus times both before and after the restoration and really like what Lester did to the course. I know the PGA guys are really good, but the second at 488 is pretty tough. That green looks like it was designed for a shorter iron approach shot, but I guess those guys blasting it 320 makes the second a little easier.

I love the Dragon's Teeth that Lester put back in. It gives the hole a cool look.

[Lester George]

Ward,

I really pushed hard to go "back" to Raynor and Mcdonald.  I had just finished restoring Cavalier Golf & Yacht Club (Banks) and felt it was even more important for the Greenbrier to do the restoration.  Robert Harris, the Director of Golf, felt the same.  I made a presentation to that effect to the CSX Hospitality Board (most were railroad men, not golfers) and they embraced it.  Very fortunate and lucky. 

Who knows how to post pictures??  I don't.  I will send some interesting historic pictures to whomever will post them to show some cool things if someone will commit to posting them.  Maybe Joe Bausch?  Joe....

Lester

[Joe Bausch]

Ward,

I really pushed hard to go "back" to Raynor and Mcdonald.  I had just finished restoring Cavalier Golf & Yacht Club (Banks) and felt it was even more important for the Greenbrier to do the restoration.  Robert Harris, the Director of Golf, felt the same.  I made a presentation to that effect to the CSX Hospitality Board (most were railroad men, not golfers) and they embraced it.  Very fortunate and lucky. 

Who knows how to post pictures??  I don't.  I will send some interesting historic pictures to whomever will post them to show some cool things if someone will commit to posting them.  Maybe Joe Bausch?  Joe....

Lester

I'll host and post them Lester.  Just send them to my Villanova email addy!

[Phil Young]

Lester,

Although I told you so privately, its nicer to say in public what a wonderful job you did at Old White.

[Sven Nilsen]

Lester,

Although I told you so privately, its nicer to say in public what a wonderful job you did at Old White.

Welcome back, Phil.

Sven

[Phil Young]

Thank you Sven... Good to be back...

[Lester George]

Thanks Phil. 

[david h. carroll]

if anyone has the chance, go see Lester's work at Cavalier in Virginia Beach which he references in his earlier response....it is a blast at par 69 and maybe 6400 yards of fun!!

[Joe Bausch]

if anyone has the chance, go see Lester's work at Cavalier in Virginia Beach which he references in his earlier response....it is a blast at par 69 and maybe 6400 yards of fun!!

I met with Lester last fall and played Cavalier on a sunny afternoon with high skies.  Here is how my eyes and camera saw Cavalier:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Cavalier/

[Joe Bausch]

Here are the pictures that Lester asked me to host on my server:

(all are 'clickable' to a larger size)

[Lester George]

Joe,

Thanks for your help.  You obviously took pity on my inability to post pictures.  Cheers.

Lester

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lester,

Those are some pretty neat photos.

I'm anxious to play there later this summer.

How much of the "thumbprint" remained when you first started ?

[Lester George]

Patrick,

Exactly none of the horseshoe contour (thumbprint) was there.  Essentially, it was all gone after the mid to late 1930's.  The Redan green was on it's original location but the shoulder was gone as was the right hand bunker.  Even the trained eye would have guessed it was a Seth Raynor golf course in 2001.

Lester

[Tom_Doak]

For what it's worth, the 5th hole in the old photo strikes me as a version of the "Leven" hole.  The giveaway is the left-to-right diagonal hazard short off the tee, which mirrors the burn on the original hole at what is now Lundin Links.  That hole also had a small hill to the left of the green which made the green fall away from left to right; Raynor generally just built mounds at the front left of the green to represent the hill.  [Remember, he never saw the real thing, only CBM's description of it.]

[Bill_McBride]

For what it's worth, the 5th hole in the old photo strikes me as a version of the "Leven" hole.  The giveaway is the left-to-right diagonal hazard short off the tee, which mirrors the burn on the original hole at what is now Lundin Links.  That hole also had a small hill to the left of the green which made the green fall away from left to right; Raynor generally just built mounds at the front left of the green to represent the hill.  [Remember, he never saw the real thing, only CBM's description of it.]

Please compare/contrast to #13 at Old Mac.   I think that's designed to be a Leven as well. 

[Tom_Doak]

For what it's worth, the 5th hole in the old photo strikes me as a version of the "Leven" hole.  The giveaway is the left-to-right diagonal hazard short off the tee, which mirrors the burn on the original hole at what is now Lundin Links.  That hole also had a small hill to the left of the green which made the green fall away from left to right; Raynor generally just built mounds at the front left of the green to represent the hill.  [Remember, he never saw the real thing, only CBM's description of it.]

Please compare/contrast to #13 at Old Mac.   I think that's designed to be a Leven as well. 

That hill to the left of #13 green at Old Macdonald was always there.  After visiting the original hole at Lundin Links, I decided to route the hole so that hill would have the same influence on the green ... the green is all recontoured by Jim Urbina, but it falls sharply from left to right.

We did not put a burn or cross hazard short off the tee; instead we put some fairway bunkers on the right side of the hole so it would be more dangerous to go right.  The burn on the Leven hole is only about 130 yards off the tee at its furthest carry ... that was a moderately difficult hazard when Macdonald got to know the hole.

[Lester George]

Tom Doak,

Raynor had that long diagonal across number 5, number 6, number 11 and used the long diagonal on the 12 in the form of a creek.  I would like to compare notes with you one day.  Thanks for chiming in.

Lester

[Bill_McBride]

For what it's worth, the 5th hole in the old photo strikes me as a version of the "Leven" hole.  The giveaway is the left-to-right diagonal hazard short off the tee, which mirrors the burn on the original hole at what is now Lundin Links.  That hole also had a small hill to the left of the green which made the green fall away from left to right; Raynor generally just built mounds at the front left of the green to represent the hill.  [Remember, he never saw the real thing, only CBM's description of it.]

Please compare/contrast to #13 at Old Mac.   I think that's designed to be a Leven as well. 

That hill to the left of #13 green at Old Macdonald was always there.  After visiting the original hole at Lundin Links, I decided to route the hole so that hill would have the same influence on the green ... the green is all recontoured by Jim Urbina, but it falls sharply from left to right.

We did not put a burn or cross hazard short off the tee; instead we put some fairway bunkers on the right side of the hole so it would be more dangerous to go right.  The burn on the Leven hole is only about 130 yards off the tee at its furthest carry ... that was a moderately difficult hazard when Macdonald got to know the hole.

What's missing is the blindness of the second shot if you bail out on the tee shot to avoid trouble and then face a blind approach.  That's what I really appreciated at NGLA, not to forget the incredible view. 

I did enjoy playing a wedge way left at Old Mac and seeing my ball trickle down for a long time and settle close in for a kick in birdie!

[Jon Cavalier]

if anyone has the chance, go see Lester's work at Cavalier in Virginia Beach which he references in his earlier response....it is a blast at par 69 and maybe 6400 yards of fun!!

I just played Cavalier GYC (for the first time) and Greenbrier Old White (which I have played several times).  Love Lester's work at both.  Old White plays like a true MacRaynor again, and Cavalier is a stellar example of a classic Banks track that can be fun and challenging at 6400 yards.  Cavalier is the best course I have played in the VA Beach area and I would recommend it to anyone.

Seems that any time I happen upon a Lester George course, I end up loving it.  Kinloch is my favorite in Virginia, and he's done a lot of fine work up my way around Philly as well.