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Ronald Montesano

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Adirondack Six 2014
« on: June 27, 2014, 11:27:44 PM »
A fellow GCA maven and I returned Wednesday afternoon after four days in the 'dacks. We stayed at Red Top Inn in Tupper Lake for two nights and Best Western in Utica for one night. Both are recommended.

We hit up six courses over that stretch. In order, they are: Teugega, Tupper Lake, Saranac Inn, Sagamore, Glens Falls and Yahnundasis.

I'm not certain if I'll do a full-bore photo thread of any of those courses. I have over 400 images each from all of them. Saranac is Seymour Dunn, Yah is Walter Travis, the rest are all or partial Ross.

I do have these Wee Tours (with photos) if you are interested in looking:
Teugega ~ http://wp.me/p20nYT-2Bd
Saranac and Tupper ~ http://wp.me/p20nYT-2Bz
Glens and Sagamore ~ http://wp.me/p20nYT-2Ce
Yahnundasis ~ http://wp.me/p20nYT-2Db
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2014, 11:05:01 PM »
If there was a theme to our trip, it was trees. The Adirondack Mountains offer beautifully-treed views, except when it comes to golf courses. We were acutely aware of how little trouble it takes to populate a golf course with arbor, how attached the membership grows to its canopies (and as a result, how difficult it is to remove a tree at times) and how costly it is to cut down tree, remove stump and roots.

We bantered about what types of wood are worthy enough to command an outside crew that will trade labor for the value of the wood. We determined it isn't pine wood that does so. Some courses are able to undertake tree reduction programs because they have the capital to spend. Others (usually public) cannot summon the funding and are left high and dry when it comes to tree removal.

Finally, since 100 years ago, no one cared if you hit an adjacent hole's golfers with a shot. Golf balls were softer, juries and judges less sympathetic and society as a whole, less litigious. Today, the ball hurts like hell and generates lawsuits. Stands of trees that serve as tee or green protection are one things; stands of trees that create double hazards, impede recovery plays and flat out kill grass are quite another.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 05:20:10 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2014, 08:22:01 PM »
Ron - which are public?

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2014, 09:27:51 PM »
Yahnny, GF and Teugega are the private ones. Sagamore is a resort/public. Tupper Lake and Saranac Inn are public.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Joe Bausch

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2014, 09:57:10 PM »
Sounds like, and looks like, a wonderful trip. 

Thanks for sharing.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Dan Boerger

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2014, 01:55:09 PM »
Nice trip!

Played the Yahnundasis many times ... really an interesting course. Also loved Teugega.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2014, 03:22:15 PM »
Could you post a pic of each course's signature hole on this thread? Also, how much snow did you get?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2014, 08:10:40 PM »
No comprendo "signature hole."

No snow...just a few, ardent black flies.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Philip Caccamise

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2014, 12:14:59 AM »
Ron-
Cool trip. Curious to know how you'd rank those. Love Yanni for the reasons you blogged on Travis about. When I lived in NYC one of my golf buddies was a member and we would do a one-day round trip up there a couple times a year.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2014, 06:59:24 AM »
Ron may be underselling how pervasive the discussion of trees was on this trip (which was probably my fault).  It was a always a topic during the rounds, usually after the rounds with the various pros / maintenance personnel, and especially during my evening reviews of historic aerials.  I was a little shocked by how vehement my reactions were to the level of plantings in some areas.  At times, I found myself astonishingly pissed off by certain clusters of Christmas Trees and other pine derivations. 

Normally, I've been the defender of trees against the "all trees are bad" school of thought that sometimes rears its head on GCA.  Moderately used, trees can be an interesting part of the golf landscape, especially single specimen trees located at strategic points.

I've never fully bought into the idea that "complete tree removal" is ideal for many courses, or that it will bring strategy back into the game by adding wider fairways and rewarding ideal angles.  That theory only works when you have boldly contoured or angled greens which truly dictate an approach angle.  Unfortunately, not every course has Ross or Travis greens, and many can be attacked aerially from ANY angle, especially given the technological advances of balls/clubs.  Given this, trees are often necessary to provide the strategic rewards / punishments that may be lacking in the green complexes.

The problem I saw on this trip was that there was often no "subtlety" in the tree management decisions of the past.  Fairways lined on both sides by geometric rows of pines serve no strategic purpose.  They are one-dimensional and punitive, similar to heavy rough, and leave no potential for difficult recovery shots.  Strategic objectives that could be accomplished with one or two trees are instead overdone by clusters of 15-20 plantings.  On top of that, some plantings had nothing to do with safety or shot values - rather there happened to be a 50 yard area of open space and someone demanded it be filled.

Over the course of six rounds, we witnessed a wide range of tree management practices and attitudes from the people we encountered, which made for quite an interesting case study, considering most of these courses did have the boldly contoured, strategic greens by Ross & Travis that make trees more expendable. 

In general, if you read Ron's "Wee Reviews" linked above, you get the sense of the days and variation in tree practices.  I'll add a few of my thoughts a little later.

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2014, 09:19:14 AM »
Ron,

great pics from a solid line up of courses. I was bummed my travel was off by a day, or I would definitely joined you at Teugega. When I stayed at Saranac  Lake last summer I attempted to get in Tupperware Lake GC on my way back, but was rained out. I will back up to the Lake Placid area in a few years and get a few more in that you played.  Thanks for the pics.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

mike_malone

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2014, 04:53:05 PM »
There is a course that I think is "Queen" something that looks interesting. It is on the way from NYThruway to Vt.
AKA Mayday

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2014, 06:13:00 PM »
Day 1 - Teugega - Because of the volume of play, we started on the back 9, and nothing made me happier than the cluster of recent pine tree stumps along the left of the 10th fairway.  The hole already forces a fade with some tight trees to the right, but I could only imagine the demanding chute before these left side pines were cleared.

Of course, then the wild 10th green (and even more extreme 11th green) took my mind off trees for a while.  I was compelled to drop additional balls after holing out to try putts with 15-20 feet of break or imagine boomerang putts that would wrap around the extreme contours.  That practice repeated itself for the first 6 greens we played.  Of all the Ross courses I'd played to date (mostly in Pinehurst), none seemed to match the stretch of greens from 10-15 for sheer wild fun.  Not that there was anything wrong with the greens on holes 16 through 9, but their brilliance was much more subdued & subtle.


The club has implemented much of Barry Jordan's Master Plan (http://www.donaldross.org/Resources/Documents/T_Plan.pdf), and the management has embraced the benefits of removal from a playability perspective.  Vistas were opened up in many areas with some fescue planting, with my favorite "feelings" in the 18tee/17 green / 11 fairway area.

Of course, when we ran into a few members on the 7th tee, we asked their perspective of the changes.  They responded "I don't like it as much - it's too easy.  I want to score better because I'm playing better and I'm forced to hit it straight."  While we were gushing about the new open views & playability, we were reminded what and unpopular task the supers face in restoring these courses.

Coincidentally, we were heading into a two hole stretch (#8/#9) that must have been these golfers' favorite.  Apparently, the tree preservers won the battle over the 8th & 9th renovations, and the claustrophobic nature of these holes stood out in stark contrast to the remainder of our day.  Little did I know that the harsh (yet brief) return to the tree culture would portend my full immersion on Day 2......


Philip Caccamise

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2014, 08:01:25 PM »
There is a course that I think is "Queen" something that looks interesting. It is on the way from NYThruway to Vt.

Queensbury Country Club. It's pretty terrible.

Matt Frey, PGA

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2014, 01:23:01 PM »
The next time you have a little more time in the the Adirondacks, drive up to Malone (New York) Golf Club. Malone is technically in the foothills of the Adirondacks, but their two 18-hole golf courses are among the best in the area. The town and village of Malone is located about 45-minutes north of Lake Placid.

The East Course is a beautiful Donald Ross (and Willard G. Wilkinson), classic design; the first six holes are very fun to play and architecturally well-designed. The back nine on the East opens up a bit more but offers some terrific views, especially on the par-3 No. 14. The course isn't terribly long, but it's plenty challenging, especially if you haven't played the course before and know your spots.

The West Course, built in the 1980s, is more of a modern design (Robert Trent Jones), but still offers its challenges. The West is also much more open in regards to tree lines and flat compared to the East and offers more water hazards.

Derek Sprague, currently the PGA of America vice president and next president, is the PGA general manager and director of golf at Malone Golf Club and has worked there since the late 1980s. He has done a marvelous job keeping both courses busy (it's a semi-private club) and, along with the board and greens committee, has made a number of course improvements in recent years to help air flow and sunlight for the green's health. Most noticeably, a fair amount of trees were removed around No. 11 East green and No. 14 East tee.

Full disclosure: I worked as one of the PGA assistant professionals at Malone Golf Club for two years (2011-2012). I now work for PGA Magazine.

Matt Frey, PGA

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2014, 03:14:02 PM »
Matt Frey~See my PM to you.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ed Homsey

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2014, 03:31:53 PM »
Thanks for this thread, Ron.  Been looking forward to a report on your trip.  Saranac Inn was a regular stop for my wife and I through the '80s.  It started out as a wide-open course with very few trees to detract from the vistas.  The gentleman who purchased the course in the mid-'80s almost immediately began an extensive tree planting program.  I can imagine that those trees have grown up and completely changed the character of that old Dunn course.

Though I am certain that he has his eyes on a few more, perhaps several more trees at Yahnundasis, the Super there has removed a significant number of trees.  For example, a few years ago, you did not have that open view of the 7th green from the first tee, as shown in one of your pictures.  Nor would you have that beautiful, open view of the fourth, that is shown on one of the shots.  Same with looking back up the 3rd.  The club, and Super, are to be congratulated for all they've done to improve that wonderful old Travis course.

Teugaga is one of my favorite courses.  I would disagree, slightly, with your comparison of the front and back greens.  The 6th hole is certainly one of the wildest greens on the planet, the 7th has one of the deepest bathtubs around, and I should mention the 3rd and 5th.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2014, 03:55:15 PM »
Ed, you're correct about Teugega. I was so overwhelmed by the fairway topography of the back (which we played first) versus the relative flatness of the front that I failed to recall all the fine greens the front nine has. I would even add a few more greens, like 4. They are finishing the work on the 5th (the periscope hole) and it will now play in a less-truncated fashion.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2014, 11:36:46 PM »
Thanks for this thread, Ron.  Been looking forward to a report on your trip.  Saranac Inn was a regular stop for my wife and I through the '80s.  It started out as a wide-open course with very few trees to detract from the vistas.  The gentleman who purchased the course in the mid-'80s almost immediately began an extensive tree planting program.  I can imagine that those trees have grown up and completely changed the character of that old Dunn course.


Ed -
Everything you said makes perfect sense after viewing the historic aerials, especially the timing of owner changes.

After our Monday AM round at Tupper Lake, we scanned J. Peter Martin's book "Adirondack Golf Course: Past & Present."  It featured an older aerial of Saranac Inn, and you could see that the entire plot was essentially treeless.  I hoped that they would maintain that feeling, but suspected otherwise.  The first hole still felt fairly open, but that changed soon after crossing the road to #2.

Ron was shooting pictures, and often the best shots are the "cross hole" angles,  where you capture several holes and convey the "feel" of the land.  The course featured some great topography, which would have made for some wonderful photos, but every such vista was blocked or cluttered.  If there was 50 yards of open space anywhere, it was filled with some type of pine tree.  It really made it difficult to get a sense of the overall routing and made the course feel very disjointed.

The final drive zone featured a severe slope that funneled all balls to the left unless you could really work a hard fade.  It was a great feature, except that the collection area in the left fairway was populated by overhanging pines.  Without the trees, you'd still face quite a challenge, with an enormous bunker guarding the green from a left side approach, on top of the uneven lie and and uphill climb.  But apparently, that wasn't enough.  I left the course feeling quite agitated,with the round punctuated by a curvilinear christmas tree framing of the 18th green exit.

Here's the Historic Aerial where you can see the 1953 & 2006 versions of the course.
http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=3.2E-05&lat=44.3438686065627&lon=-74.3307261992189&year=2006

Looking at Google Maps, you can see the plague of pine plantings started in the mid 1990s, which shows that it only takes 20 years to ruin the vista-filled character of a classic course.  It was too bad, because there were some wonderful holes (#1, 8, 12, 15, 17, 18) and greens (1, 8, 9) hidden among the pines.



Kevin Lynch

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2014, 11:46:07 PM »
Though I am certain that he has his eyes on a few more, perhaps several more trees at Yahnundasis, the Super there has removed a significant number of trees.  For example, a few years ago, you did not have that open view of the 7th green from the first tee, as shown in one of your pictures.  Nor would you have that beautiful, open view of the fourth, that is shown on one of the shots.  Same with looking back up the 3rd.  The club, and Super, are to be congratulated for all they've done to improve that wonderful old Travis course.

I agree with your assessment and enjoyed absorbing the overall feel of the property at Yahnundasis.  Could more trees go? Of course, but I never had claustrophobic or cluttered sensations.  

I loved so many of the greens, with 8, 11, 14, & 17 topping the list.  Every time I play a Travis design like CC Troy, Lookout Point or Yahnundasis, it makes me wonder about the greens at Orchard Park.  In comparison, the internal contouring at OPCC is so benign that I wonder how much "neutering" may have been done over the years at Orchard Park (beyond the obvious remodeling in the 1990s).  Parts of the routing and siting of greens at Yahnundasis felt similar to OPCC, but the boldness of the greens sticks out as an obvious difference.

In terms of set-up, I would love to see some of the fall offs and chipping areas restored. The general theme was a traditional "ring of rough" a few feet off each green.  I kept imagining what Ian Andrew might do with the grassing lines around some of the greens.



Yahnundasis was also a fun historical exercise.  We borrowed the club's Centennial book during our lunch, and it was interesting to see the revisions and re-routing of the course in the 1930s and the 1950's.  I wish I had known about the original 6th hole (played from left of current 4th green to the current 6th green) before we played, as I always love envisioning the abandoned playing corridors.  

Based on the early drawings, scorecard yardage and Google Earth, it appeared that the original first green was sited somewhere near the large mound that is now on the left side of #1 fairway.  Do you have any more insight as to the original greensite?  I was also trying to locate the original sites for the 2nd and 3rd holes (current 3 & 4 were original 4th/5th).

 From what I can tell, the original 3rd (a Par 3) was abandoned some time in 1930-31, but was curious if the current 2nd green was anywhere near the original 3rd green.  The original Travis design called for more of a diagonal Par three (headed WNW toward the current ladies' 3rd tee), but the 1930-31 revision maps showed the actual hole on the ground running to the North towards the current 2nd green.  I wondered if the Gordons started from scratch on the 2nd green, or if there were any remnants of the original 3rd that were resurrected in the 1950s (although it's doubtful the abandoned 3rd  stayed in shape for 20+ years).

Any of your historical expertise would be greatly appreciated.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Adirondack Six 2014
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2014, 12:15:30 AM »
Day 2 - Tupper Lake / Saranac - This was my day of angst.  

Tupper Lake was a shorter, sportier course, with several greens sloping away from the fairway to provide "non length-related" challenges.  There were bold contours and great movement in the land, but too many fairways were simply littered by the geometric plantings.  

The nadir was near the 14th green, as I was in a front right bunker, while the pin was in the back right of the green.  It would have been a difficult recovery, as I had to carry a second flanking bunker closer to the pin.  Unfortunately, any recovery was made impossible because someone had the vision of planting a large pine tree between the two bunkers (guessing that wasn't on Ross' blueprint).  On the 17th, others felt compelled to plant a recent cluster of pines in the left rough, as if a blind shot to a severe green from the rough was too interesting (or too easy, in their minds) and screamed the need for a forced pitch out.

The new director of golf is trying his best to undo the years of "ad hoc" course design, mainly from the perspective of turf maintenance, but again faces stiff resistance from older members.  The bones of a very interesting course are there, with the only limiting stretch of topography on the 11th, 13th & 14th holes.  


This round was followed in the afternoon by the visit to Saranac Inn, which I've already vented about from a tree maintenance perspective.

Luckily, Day 3 was going to provide the relief I desperately needed.