Is 11 at Congressional as bad to play as it looks ?

[mike_malone]

Straight and long with trees on both sides off the tee and a parallel creek running along the right. There seems to be no strategy .

[Paul Carey]

You are right.  It's a par 5 for member play.  You can't see the pond on the right from the fairway as well.

[Stephen Northrup]

...and it's uphill all the way too. Not the most fun hole at Congo, for certain.

[Mike Benham]

Straight and long with trees on both sides off the tee and a parallel creek running along the right. There seems to be no strategy .

Based on your description, can't that be said for any straight hole with trees on both sides?

Every hole ever built has at least one strategy ...

[Jerry Kluger]

The fairway slopes pretty hard down to the right toward the stream.  The green has two levels left and right with the left side being higher.  It was designed as a long, uphill par 5 and the green actually has a small back left section which I don't think they can use when playing it as a par 4. 

In 1997 I was a marshal at the Open and on Sunday I sat on the wall that creates the pond to the right of the green and told the players where they crossed the hazard line if they went in the water.  I believe it was intentional that Ernie Els, who won the event, purposely played a few yards short of the green to avoid the water right and bunkers and deep rough left.  He then chipped in for the only birdie I remember seeing that day. To me it was the best course management I have ever seen. 

I agree that it would probably play better as a par 5 from the back tee but the way they have been easily reaching 16 I just don't know what to think.

[J.D. Griffith]

I'm just not a fan of the entire course, not just the 11th hole.  The entire course just doesn't please my eye at all.

[mike_beene]

So of we just call it a par 5 without changing any feature of the hole, does it become a strategic Augusta type 4 and 1/2 full of options?

[Matthew Essig]

So of we just call it a par 5 without changing any feature of the hole, does it become a strategic Augusta type 4 and 1/2 full of options?

IMO, yes.....

HOWEVER, there is strategy to the hole as a par 4, too. You have to play to a certain side of the fairway. You should hug the creek to hit to the back left (if I remember correctly, the Sunday hole location is typically over the left bunker without being tucked all the way in the back left corner). You should hug the left edge of the fairway for the ball to end up in the middle of the fairway to have a better angle into the back right shelf.

[Matthew Rose]

I think they always played it as a Par 5 in the Kemper Open. Not sure about any of the majors before '97.

I could see it being a better hole if it was wider and encouraged angles.... based on the play I saw today, the front left pin appeared to be as difficult as any. I could see the merit in asking players to risk aiming at the creek to improve the angle, but the hole doesn't seem really wide enough for this possibility as it is now.

[mike_malone]

Creeks that you need to avoid are wasted architectural opportunities.

[Matthew Essig]

Creeks that you need to avoid are wasted architectural opportunities.

I'll keep that in mind. If I ever play ANGC, I will hit it into Rae's Creek throughout Amen Corner.......

[noonan]

Not a fan of long lush rough

[Martin Toal]

Par 4, par 5, whats the difference (apart from "1", obviously)?.

Tour pros should approach every hole looking for the best way to get a score and get on to the next. Els's strategy to play short left and chip on  (or in) sounds pretty commercial.

[mike_malone]

I think of 13 at ANGC as the classic creek that one "takes on" .

[Matthew Essig]

I think of 13 at ANGC as the classic creek that one "takes on" .

-Because it is a risk/reward par 5? If 13 was a long, tough par 4, would the creek be something you avoid? (I know "par" is an arbitrary number that doesn't really matter)

-Because you hook around it?

[Scott Warren]

Matthew,

You need to get over the ruling concept of "par". Par is irrelevant, changing the par doesn't change the hole.

A "hazard you need to avoid" is one you'd play away from. A hazard you "take on" is one which delivers a benefit from successfully playing near to it.

You have to engage with the creek on 13 at ANGC to have the best chance of success (birdie or eagle) on the hole. If you avoid engaging with it and play wide off the tee, or lay up short of it with your approach, you'll be safer but less likely to make better than par.

Great courses are full of holes with hazards you have to "take on".

[Matthew Essig]

Matthew,

You need to get over the ruling concept of "par". Par is irrelevant, changing the par doesn't change the hole.

A "hazard you need to avoid" is one you'd play away from. A hazard you "take on" is one which delivers a benefit from successfully playing near to it.

You have to engage with the creek on 13 at ANGC to have the best chance of success (birdie or eagle) on the hole. If you avoid engaging with it and play wide off the tee, or lay up short of it with your approach, you'll be safer but less likely to make better than par.

Great courses are full of holes with hazards you have to "take on".

The point I am making with #13 at ANGC is if it were a "par 4," WHICH HAS NO EFFECT ON THE ARCHITECTURE, (I have underdstood that from day one on the site) changes the psychology of the player playing the hole. But let me go back to the real issue.....

The TRUE POINT I am trying to get to is in order to access the back left hole location they had today, you have to "take on" the creek like Rose did.

Because the creek is parallel to the fairway, it might seem like you "play away from it" but you still challenge the creek side of the fairway. If you think "play away from it" then you are looking at glass half empty. That is a negative way of looking at the creek and just messes with your mental state. Rose had the mind of a champion: took on the creek side of the fairway in order to have a good angle into today's hole location. What did he get out of it? A BIRDIE. And the result on that one hole helped him get into a playoff.

HERE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART: I DO NOT LIKE THE HOLE. SOMETHING BETTER COULD HAVE COME FROM THAT LAND..... BUT THE CURRENT HOLE, AS MUCH AS I HAVE A HARD TIME SAYING AND OTHERS DON'T BELIEVE, HAS SOME STRATEGIC VALUE.

[JESII]

The truth is Mayday...the hole is simply a big brother to your 13th.

A flat of brute of a two-shotter that may not be the most charming hole around...

[mike_malone]

The reason I asked about "play" versus "look" is because I did not know. 13 at Rolling Green may not look like much but it plays fun. It is missing the constriction of 11 at Congressional as well.  Possibly 7 at RG is closer to the criticism you make.