What if Robert Trent Jones Never Happened?

[Paul Gray]

Whatever your feelings about Robert Trent Jones, and admittedly round here they're not too positive, no one can argue that he did not have a huge influence on the game. So, negatives and positives, what would/wouldn't golf look like today had RTJ simply never become involved in the game?

[Jim Nugent]

Assuming no one else came along to do what RTJ did...

#16 at ANGC would probably look and play very differently than it does.

Dick Wilson might have gotten more work and had greater influence? 

Oakland Hills and Baltusrol completely different. 

The 2015 US Open would probably have a different venue, as Chambers Bay would not exist.

Without RTJ, how does Pete Dye develop as an architect? 


 

[Steve Okula]

You wouldn't have Kyle Philips work at the Grove, Kingsbarns, or Yas Links, among others, or Cabell Robinson and his fine work La Reserva in Spain or Praia do Rei in Protugal. 

There would be no R.T. Jr or Rees, and much less antagonism here in the forum.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Gray,

I think RTJ helped increase the interest in golf as golf was becoming more popular.

He was certainly prolific and a household name after he became the "Open Doctor"

Architects like Ross and RTJ may have approached the business of GCA differently than their peers, many of whom were one man organizations.

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

You don't actually need to formerly address me personally but thanks. 

[Carl Rogers]

As this thread develops, let's not take the complex and oversimplify it.  RTJ is not the root of all the game's ills.

[Paul Gray]

Allow me to suggest one possibility:

Had Trent Jones not been about, golf would have developed in much the same way regardless. Consider that Augusta was created to test long iron play. Was that just a prelude to the inevitable emergence of 'a difficult par'? Would someone else not have simply forwarded the same philosophies which came to be associated with RTJ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

In general, someone would have come in and created a business model for gca similar to RTJ.

Specifically, I wonder how Dick Wilson's designs might have varied.  He came from the Merion/Flynn mold, but the characteristics of his work seem to be more based on competing with Jones.  More difficulty, less subtlety, etc., rather than carrying on a less bold, more subtle Merion/Flynn style.  Might have had a different effect.

Who would have remodeled Oakland Hills, taking over from Ross when he passed away, after drawing a plan (which, BTW, wasn't all that different than the final Jones plan)  Did RTJ influence the USGA in course designs for the Open or was it the other way around, and the results would have been similar, setting a slightly different path?

And, of more personal concern, how much lower would design fees be today if RTJ hadn't set the precedence for signature fees?   (And, I actually recall he was the prime mover in the long discarded ASGCA standard minimum fee schedule......)

Fascinating to speculate how things might have gone, a la "Back to the Future."  Also impossible to know.

[Mike_Young]

All should read the new RTJ book before commenting.  Unknown to me was his involvement with muni's and how they helped carry him and get him started.  Read the book.  He was complicated.  The main thing that stood out to me was how the book barely mentioned Dick Wilson but one time and never Joe Lee.  He was afraid of Dick Wilson and went out of his way to put himself above him. 

[Bill_McBride]

I need to read that RTJ book to hopefully learn more about Stanley Thompson, the "Toronto Terror."   I've only played Capilano and Highland Links of his courses, but they are probably the best routings I've ever seen over very difficult terrain. 

[Adam Lawrence]

I need to read that RTJ book to hopefully learn more about Stanley Thompson, the "Toronto Terror."   I've only played Capilano and Highland Links of his courses, but they are probably the best routings I've ever seen over very difficult terrain. 

Bill - when you read the book you will be very surprised, because Jim concludes that it is certain RTJ routed Capilano!

[Tom_Doak]

Maybe we would be free of "Open Doctor" b.s.

[Carl Johnson]

I need to read that RTJ book to hopefully learn more about Stanley Thompson, the "Toronto Terror."   I've only played Capilano and Highland Links of his courses, but they are probably the best routings I've ever seen over very difficult terrain. 

Bill, you will learn more about both Thompson and Jones . . . well, maybe not Thompson, from the RTJ book by James Hansen than from the Toronto Terror book by James Barclay. They are very different books, which is not to grade them.  (I've read both and tried, as others, to start a thread about Hansen's Jones book, to no avail.)