Renaissance Cup at Renaissance Club

[Ally Mcintosh]

Why does Renaissance Club not get talked about more?  It looks fantastic.

+1

Anyone able to post some more photos?

Information on how to play the course would be appreciated too. It seems to be member/guest but presumably there are 'ways-and means'?

atb

If you want to play, you could always join the club.  Your other alternative is to befriend a member and play as their guest if invited.  Seems pretty straight forward to me.

We don't do access preciousness in GB&I... Therefore it is a valid question...

Thomas - I think they do offer limited green fee rounds...

I played the course in 2008 and visited the site a couple of times in 2009 with the EIGCA when we played around with possible routings on the new land now used for 9, 10 & 11... I look forward to returning someday to see how it plays in its new configuration...

Ally

[John Kirk]

Do they still maintain the original holes 1-3 which are now not in the primary eighteen hole course?

I liked that 2nd hole, about 225 yards, slightly downhill.

[Frank Pont]

Photo tours of RC in 2011 with old configuration and in 2014 with new configuration (in 2014 tour starts on hole 3, I did not photograph holes 1 and 2)

http://ivgd.smugmug.com/Golf-Architecture-Pictures/Scotland/Renaissance-Club

For those who did not attend, notice the difference in fairway width between the years.

[Marty Bonnar]

I'll chip in with a few random thoughts, but first I'd like to say thanks to Tom for the kind invite. I'd also like to take the opportunity to express how well we were treated by all of the staff at RC. The owners, members and managers should be very proud. Service was attentive yet unobtrusive, food and drinks beautifully prepared and presented and, above all else, the quality of the welcome was second to none.
The facilities are also world class. Although fairly 'American' in style and feel, they're not overly ostentatious and not at all too glitzy for the Scottish location. Quite swanky, but good choice of materials and finishes with comfy furniture creating a lovely, cozy feeling environment.

I'll compose some more architectural thoughts on a separate Post.

F.

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you Ally and Frank.

"We don't do access preciousness in GB&I" - wonderful phrase!

atb

[Niall C]

I'll chip in with a few random thoughts, but first I'd like to say thanks to Tom for the kind invite. I'd also like to take the opportunity to express how well we were treated by all of the staff at RC. The owners, members and managers should be very proud. Service was attentive yet unobtrusive, food and drinks beautifully prepared and presented and, above all else, the quality of the welcome was second to none.
The facilities are also world class. Although fairly 'American' in style and feel, they're not overly ostentatious and not at all too glitzy for the Scottish location. Quite swanky, but good choice of materials and finishes with comfy furniture creating a lovely, cozy feeling environment.

I'll compose some more architectural thoughts on a separate Post.

F.

Well said that man, I'd also like to thank Tom and his colleagues for their hospitality, and the club for making us so welcome. A great few days golf.

Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

Some post-RC musings:

General:
Course presentation: I loved it. Some of the views across sweeping, wind blown swathes of red fescue were like looking out over the African veldt. I half expected to see lions...

The attention to detail is impressive. Whilst it could never be called manicured (thankfully), the course is very neatly prepared.  One of my litmus tests is how the greenkeepers manage the junctions between different materials and choose the look of course furniture. Tee markers were pretty little discs and tubes of granite (or a good facsimile of!) set nicely into and onto the ground. Sand buckets, little timber boxes, subtly brown painted. Wonderful rustic timber benches set at strategic points atop the few hefty ascents. Paths and tracks employing the local red sandstone chips as loose surfacing. All nice touches.

Some issues:
Amongst all who attended, I think we'd all agree that the main problem lies with the decision to narrow the fairways and the method chosen to do it. It's horribly unsubtle, penal in the extreme and, most heinously, totally against the spirit and original intent of the design.
We found a lot of bunkers deep into what is now very heavy and long rough which were almost invisible, given the overhanging long grass. I'd guess they were losing up to half their surface area hidden by totally unmaintained long grass. I don't think this will be a sustainable practice going ahead.
We almost started an unofficial competition to see who could find the sprinkler head furthest into the rough. Some of them are waaaay in there!
A bit of evidence of poa in some of the greens. Mostly the new ones, and I'm sure the greenstaff will attend to it over the next close season.
While I absolutely loved the new holes, the green to tee walks were a bit forced/long and took away a little from what is otherwise a really well balanced routing. Would have been great if the tees could have been set a little higher on 10 to give a great view of the fairway, but I'd guess SNH would not have been too amenable to the idea of any major earthmoving in the dune system.

Let me close these comments by adding that much of this is my architectural purism/snobbery and will be of little concern to the club members and visitors who will have, as we did, a whale of a time.

Cheers,
F.

[Marty Bonnar]

Also,
Just a quick note to say how cool it was to meet/re-meet some fine GCA Friends. This was a top quality chance for a major beard-pulling exercise and, boy, did we make the most of it.
I'm also going to suggest that the opportunity to pore over the draft of the new Confidential Guide WITH the author was one of life's great moments!
All in all, a brilliant couple of days in East Lothian.
Cheers,
F.

[Niall C]

Martin

Once again, well said. One issue I'd take with you though is to the narrowing of the fairways which I'm sure must have frustated Tom and his colleagues although they were far too polite to make an issue of it. To me the fairways looked as wide if not wider than most other courses round about however the problem was what was just off the fairway. Also might add that I wasn't too bothered about the walks green to tee.

Niall

[Angela Moser]

Good evening Gentlemen,

being part of the construction of the new holes, I am very happy how they turned out. I would like to confirm the issue of the green-tee walk being a limitation to the SSSI restriction map. Everything left of Hole 9 was highly restricted, and so was the area around 10 tees. We were only scraping off the vegetation for the tees and build the tees with a sandpro (being watched by a STRI guy). No heavy machines in the dunes. The location of the tees were picked due to the path down to the tees was an existing walking path.

[Marty Bonnar]

Thanks Angela,
always good to hear from someone who was actually there during construction!
best regards,
M.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

As usual following Martion is never easy as he says everything perfectly.
So to start with I agree and second everything HE said.
Wonderful event, great quality fo service from all at the club, food was marvelous and everybody was so courteous.

It was great to finally put faces to names from this site and the level of knowledge and depth of conversations was very inspiring, it is a reminder of how just wonderful a site this is or at least can be most of the time, we are luck to have this site and the cative involvement of prominent architects like Tom, Frank et all to help us learn!!!!
What a treat to play with two guys fullyin the field in the forms of Frank and Patrice two wonderful Gents who were so gracious in sharining their thougyts as we went around the "tightened" Rennaisance course.

Like most others oplayibng, it woukld have been great to see and enjoy the playing corridors that Tom had planned, but that been said it did give the opportunity to see how else it could be set up, as for a Scottish Open for example

It was certanly set up in an unforgiving way, but I really enjoyed the challenge of playing it that way and now relish the chance of seeing it the other way in the future.
Hopefully I will post some pictures later, but suffice it to say another masterpiece from The architect, in superb condition bar the potential of the poa, but itis early days in the summer yet, so that may take care of itself with time, providing they get some heat!!!

I enjoyed he flow of the course, rare once changes have been made to an initial lay out.
A great mixture of holes shapes, directions, good variety in respective hole lengths of par3/4/5 a real treat.

The stretch from 4 onwards is spectacular and that is not to say the first three are not good holes.
The two opening tee shots on this occasion were VERY challenging but #4 is a veryspecial hole.

Thaks again Tom for providing anothe canvass upon which we can drool, to all the staff at the club and the folks at the Duck!!!!

[Jim Nugent]

Does the club plan to keep this narrow setup for everyday play?  Or will widen the fairways the way Tom planned and built them? 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I assume Tom knos the answer to that, when I asked the guys at the club were 'politically aware" and didnt know.
I guess it is was thenowner wants at the end of the day.
Perhaps alternate the set up at various times, that would be fun.

As I said although it would have been great to the see Tom's vision at its full, it was not unfair or unreasonable as it played, just a very stern test.

[David_Tepper]

"it did give the opportunity to see how else it could be set up, as for a Scottish Open for example"

Michael W-P,

Given the success of the Scottish Open at Castle Stuart (where the fairways are very wide) over the past 3 years, hopefully we are beyond the notion that fairways narrowed by heavy rough are required to host a championship event.

DT

[Tom_Doak]

I was told that the fairways were narrowed to get the Slope rating up.  When the course was re-rated after the new holes came online, the Slope was only 128, and the members were very unhappy about it.

That has actually been a constant theme of my design work.  The first time the course is rated, there is no water or o.b. in play, the fairways are wide, and they underestimate the difficulty of the greens ... also, the Slope system does not take into account STRATEGY, when you are in the fairway but don't have an angle to the hole.

Anyway, narrowing up the fairways got the Slope bumped up four points.  Why that would be worth looking for golf balls on half the holes, I don't know.

[Ulrich Mayring]

The members were unhappy about the slope rating == they are a bunch of sorry sandbaggers?

Anyway, the good thing is that once you have your "desired" slope rating, you can restore the mowing lines. There's actually no need to keep the course in the condition it was in when it got rated.

Ulrich

[Brent Hutto]

So the sick joke that is the USGA Handicap System has now managed to induce a course 6,000 miles away being butchered in pursuit of high slope rating bragging rights. I hope they serve ice cold Bud Light in the clubhouse...

[Frank Pont]

I was told that the fairways were narrowed to get the Slope rating up.  When the course was re-rated after the new holes came online, the Slope was only 128, and the members were very unhappy about it.

That has actually been a constant theme of my design work.  The first time the course is rated, there is no water or o.b. in play, the fairways are wide, and they underestimate the difficulty of the greens ... also, the Slope system does not take into account STRATEGY, when you are in the fairway but don't have an angle to the hole.

Anyway, narrowing up the fairways got the Slope bumped up four points.  Why that would be worth looking for golf balls on half the holes, I don't know.

I have had the same experience in my design work so far. The USGA course and slope rating system does not include enough points for firm asymmetrically defended greens with lots of short grass around them, and wide strategically bunkered fairways. This combination according to the USGA is a receipt for very easy golf if you have to trust their algorithms.

Obviously these algorithms are wrong/incomplete, but getting them changed to incorporate these thoughts is obviously missionary work, especially since its about including the un American essence of bump and run play.

What we do in Holland is the Dutch Golf Federation makes a big spiel of measuring the C&S rating, then the club goes back and says its too low, and then the Federation jacks it up. What a waste of time .......  

[Tom_Doak]

What we do in Holland is the Dutch Golf Federation makes a big spiel of measuring the C&S rating, then the club goes back and says its too low, and then the Federation jacks it up. What a waste of time .......  

That's generally how it works in America, too.

When Stonewall was first opened it had the same problem -- 127 Slope!  They hosted the Philadelphia Open a couple of years after it opened and no one broke par ... when the chair of the Golf Association of Philadelphia remarked that the course was pretty hard, Mr. May responded, "We know.  You're the ones who rated it low."

Slope rating really should go to its grave someday.  With the advent of Big Data, it ought to be possible to come up with a more accurate account simply by gathering all scores posted ... and adjusted daily depending on the conditions.  As we all know, if you play a round in a 25-mph wind, you're going to score higher and it just won't count when determining your handicap, even though it might be the best test of how good you really are.  But, as Mike Young often points out, there is a lot of money in handicapping, and the USGA isn't going to abandon its advantage.

[Mark Chaplin]

98% of British golfers wouldn't know if a slope of 128 was extremely hard or a pitch and putt. Sadly it appears many Americans coming to their Scottish club can't leave their golf culture behind and go with the flow. I take it there are plenty of free pencils and scorecards rather than a 19th match play hole and foursomes paths?

Ps the course looks fantastic.

[Frank Pont]

98% of British golfers wouldn't know if a slope of 128 was extremely hard or a pitch and putt. Sadly it appears many Americans coming to their Scottish club can't leave their golf culture behind and go with the flow. I take it there are plenty of free pencils and scorecards rather than a 19th match play hole and foursomes paths?

Ps the course looks fantastic.

Mark,

unfortunately I have been told by people inside EGU that the UK is also moving towards the Course and Slope system.....

[Niall C]

98% of British golfers wouldn't know if a slope of 128 was extremely hard or a pitch and putt. Sadly it appears many Americans coming to their Scottish club can't leave their golf culture behind and go with the flow. I take it there are plenty of free pencils and scorecards rather than a 19th match play hole and foursomes paths?

Ps the course looks fantastic.

Mark,

unfortunately I have been told by people inside EGU that the UK is also moving towards the Course and Slope system.....

Frank

That may well be true however let me assure you that none but a very small proportion of UK golfers would know what a slope rating was even if you hit them over the head with it. Given that supposedly about half the members are non-US I would assume they are mostly UK golfers and therefore couldn't give a stuff about the slope.

Niall

[Frank Pont]

Niall,

C&S ratings will determine your handicap in the UK in the future, and most golfers UK, US or Dutch I know care a lot about their handicaps.

I get more and more requests to make sure to detail what the changes I am proposing on course imply for the C&S rating

[Brent Hutto]

The desire of golfers and golf course owners to measure and compare dick size truly knows no bounds.