[Frank Pont]

In the spirit of good old open source efforts I thought it could be fun to have a go in this forum with amateurs and pros at coming up with a few routings to expand the Olaf course into 18 holes.

The topo maps are available from this thread ( http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58821.0.html ) in DWG, SKP and PDF format, so you should be able to get your pick.

I include my best effort so far below



The full size version you can download here

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10772736/GolfClubAtlas/Cruden%20Bay%20contours%201%20A3%20Olaf%20zoom.pdf

Let the routing games begin  

[Thomas Dai]

Frank,

Not being a great computer-topo-map techie here are some initial thoughts -

Holes 1 - as per your red-line
hole 2 - as per red-line except extend to over ditch
then
go to red-line hole 13 but play it in reverse and extended (tee over ditch)
then
walk between 6th green-7 tee of Champ course
play red-line holes 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 & 4 generally in reverse (with red-line 4 extended)
then
play red-line hole 3 in reverse as a par-3
then
play red-line hole 14 (current St-O 4th)
then
play current St-O holes 5, 6 (red-line 15), 7 (r-l 16), 8 (r-l 17) & 9 (r-l 18)

I believe (hope ) that this makes up a total of 18 holes!

Not being sufficiently techie I'm not sure what the overall yardage is but par should work out to be about 70.

Nice exercise ...... if only!

atb

[Ben Stephens]

Frank


How about the main course's holes 4,5,6 used for St Olaf course and new holes 4,5,6 alongside the coast.

The St Olaf course will then be contained within the front nine loop of the main course.

Another question can 15 and 16 on the main course be combined into one hole a short/medium par 4. 


Cheers
Ben

[Adam Lawrence]

Frank


How about the main course's holes 4,5,6 used for St Olaf course and new holes 4,5,6 alongside the coast.

The St Olaf course will then be contained within the front nine loop of the main course.

Another question can 15 and 16 on the main course be combined into one hole a short/medium par 4. 


Cheers

Ben

I think removing the Bluidy Burn from the main course would be heresy! Magnificent par five.

[Paul Gray]

I'm always amazed that anyone can design a course from a topo. That said, I might just try it!

OT: Frank, having played Camberley on Thursday will be fascinated to see what you come up with.

[Frank Pont]

Frank


How about the main course's holes 4,5,6 used for St Olaf course and new holes 4,5,6 alongside the coast.

The St Olaf course will then be contained within the front nine loop of the main course.

Another question can 15 and 16 on the main course be combined into one hole a short/medium par 4.  


Cheers

Ben

I think removing the Bluidy Burn from the main course would be heresy! Magnificent par five.

+1  I would never want to lose the stretch of holes 4-7 on the main course. Also losing par 3's 15 and 16 for a new par 4 is possible but you lose a lot of history and quirk with it....

An option would be to keep both par 3 holes, but build a new tee which makes 16 a driveable par 4 of 265 yards. That tee would be somewhere in the dunes behind the 14th green (the original position of the 15th tee before it got moved way back to the side of the 14th green).

That way the members, many of whom dislike 15 and 16 can play the new par 4 hole and the new par 3 hole at the end of the property, and visitors can play the classic course with the old 15th and 16th hole (many will probably play 19 holes, including the new par 3)

[Frank Pont]

Thomas,

was this what you had in mind?

[Thomas Dai]

Frank,

Yes, it probably could be tweaked a bit here and there, especially around red-line holes 12-13-14-15 to use more of the land there, but as an overall routing it's an option. Nice to exercise the brain into recalling various aspects of the dunes and ridges for as well as the big dunes near the seashore, which get the obvious visual appeal, there is a lovely dune ridge that runs approximately from the current St-O 7th green southwest towards the current St-O 4th green. Using and crossing this ridge a few times would be nice. I'd be loath to give up the current wonderful St-O 6th greensite though, but if needs must...

Thank you for displaying this routing. It'll be interesting to see what Michael and fido come up with.

atb

[Michael Tamburrini]

I reckon my layout would be a par 63. 

I tried to do it without touching the current 9 hole course.  This has one change - aside from the order and a few slightly different tees - the current 5th would be played in reverse, possibly even sharing a double green with the current 4th.

Like Frank, I can only think of two possible crossing areas between the current St Olaf and the dunes:  At the 7th tee of the big course and also at the 5th.  Anywhere else would be too awkward. 

The holes in the dunes are very rough, I can't remember the layout of them well enough off the top of my head.  I'm sure there is a nice, natural swale where I've put my proposed 10th and, given that Frank had a hole in pretty much the same spot, I reckon that's accurate.  But much of the rest is a bit of a guess and will probably be revised as I wander round there.

Speaking of which, I did try taking some pictures of the St Olaf course this morning: the 6th and 7th greens are probably my two favourite green sites on either course, but it was too dull and gray so they never came out very well.  The next time it's sunny, I'll see if I can get some nice ones.

[JBovay]

Frank,

I first want to express my sympathy for the tragedy that struck the flight out of Amsterdam last week.

Second, thank you so much for posting these files and the thread. I had a terrific learning experience creating the routing below, after (sort of) figuring out how to use GIMP.



Link to a higher-resolution version here:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-X0a1LWTe7is/U9I77X3YRDI/AAAAAAAAI8I/kTMNwz1az-o/s1600/Cruden%2520Bay_d3_final.jpg

I got to see how difficult it is to create a routing with diversity of holes, without bad holes, without long walks between holes, and without safety issues, even if your canvas is as spectacular as the dunes south of Cruden Bay's #5-7.  (Honestly, I think I failed on at least three of four counts.) For example, the landscape really bottlenecks near the 6th tee on the big course, so options for building holes going both directions through that spot are limited.

And that was without considering any environmental restrictions. Frank, are the areas outlined in green on your map somehow protected? If a project like expanding St. Olaf ever got off the ground, what environmental restrictions would be likely? Could you play holes over the burn? What kinds of restrictions would there be on shaping? Grasses? Mowing patterns? Fertilizers? Would there need to be some kind of remediation on another site to compensate for disturbance to the dunes here? (I am a lazy/former environmentalist, and I am still a great supporter of environmental laws, but I just wonder about the effects on golf architecture.)

I decided to leave all of the green sites intact and just move the tee for #6 on the St. Olaf course, but of course making more changes to the original course allow more flexibility.

(In case you have trouble seeing the details, my routing is 1-2-5-eight new holes through the dunes-a connector that plays over the 7th fairway on the big course-3-4-6-7-8-9. Par 65, roughly 5,000 meters.)

I hope many others will contribute their own ideas for this thread. I intend to go back and study the few other proposals that were put in and to have a fun and constructive discussion.

JB

P.S. Frank, I really like your proposal for #s 9 and 10 on the big course. Shame that you're not able to carry out the work.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Figured I'd take a stab at it:



I'm not very happy with the situation around the 17th hole and wonder if the original 8th and 9th should be retained. It became a hurdle to ensure width between holes, especially when working around the main course. There probably isn't a par 5 on the course but a good mix of par 4's.

[Ru Macdonald]

As Cruden member Holes 15&16 not detested too much by membership but 15 would be obsolete in a Championship layout with composite course allowing increased length. Front of Hole 16 will be improved this winter hopefully.

Changes to the Main course holes 4,5,6, would be catastrophic IMO as are very strong holes known locally to the caddies as our 'amen corner'.

Frank, interesting thread. Thanks for sharing.

Frank


How about the main course's holes 4,5,6 used for St Olaf course and new holes 4,5,6 alongside the coast.

The St Olaf course will then be contained within the front nine loop of the main course.

Another question can 15 and 16 on the main course be combined into one hole a short/medium par 4. 


Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

Is there any idea to just improving the 9 holer or creating a few extra holes they make sense and help with the flow?  Does there need to be 36 holes crammed into this property?  I fear for courses when standarded thinking takes too strong a grip.

Ciao

[JBovay]

Ben,

This is really excellent work--the artwork, of course, but the routing is, too.

I really like your solution for getting to the 3rd tee by rotating the second hole, and like your tenth a lot, too. If you weren't trying to build 18 holes on the property, but just 16 or 17 (following Sean's suggestion), you could preserve most of the rest of the existing St. Olaf course. 17 holes might be perfect, thanks to Frank's par 3 on the big course.

I'll now comment on your proposal and others for the holes in the dunes along the coast. Regrettably, I had to scrap plans to play the St. Olaf this year, so I can't say which holes from it should stay or go.

Ben's 3rd hole is a popular choice through a valley in the dunes (my 11th, Michael's 10th, Thomas' 4th).

Ben recognized a great tee location for his 4th hole: perched on the ocean's edge, it allows the player to avoid climbing a serious hill with the 4th tee shot that would be necessary if the tee was just a bit inland (see Thomas' 5th tee as drawn).

The holes on the ridge along the ocean are obviously all thrilling, but I wonder if the fairway for Ben's 5th/Thomas' 7th is just too narrow, with steep drops on both sides.

Ben's 6th would be even better IMO if the fairway were widened a little and perhaps the tee pushed back so that the large hill between the LZ and the 7th green came into play strategically--so that players were forced to choose between an aggressive line along the ocean and a blind second. (My 8th has the same strategic feature, playing the opposite direction.) I think Frank recognized this the way he drew Thomas' 8th.

On Ben's 9th and Frank's 8th, I'm not sold on the idea of putting the green behind the ridge, blind, with all the other trouble lurking unseen in the form of the blowout and the burn.

Ben, perhaps you could squeeze in another par-3 across the burn, after your 4th or 9th hole, similar to Thomas' 6th, in order to help reach a target number of holes without replacing the whole existing course. Playing the 10th toward the existing 2nd green would help, too.

My one other comment on the inland holes: I really like the green site for Frank's/Thomas' 15th.

Great contributions from all and thanks again to Frank for sharing.

Best,
JB

[Thomas Dai]

Nicely analysed JB. Shame you had to scrap your plans to play the St-O this year.
atb

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