Did Ross actually say #1 hole should be easy?

[mike_malone]

Or is that just an interpretation that people have made?

[Jim_Kennedy]

I think he actually mentioned two or more 'easy' holes to start.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday,

His products, such as Wannamoissett (sp?), Plainfield, Mountain Ridge and others would seem to indicate that Ross never made that statement or if he did, he changed his mind before the ink was dry.

[Nigel Islam]

French Lick #1 is certainly not one of the easier holes on the course.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

From the "The Opening Holes" chapter of Golf Has Never Failed Me – The Lost Commentaries of Legendary Golf Architect Donald J. Ross...

"It is best to not make the first two holes or so too difficult.  Give the player a chance to warm up a bit and get the swing of his stroke under control.  Then give him some nuts to crack.  Difficult holes at the start are also apt to cause congestion, holding up the start of the subsequent players, much to their annoyance."

[mike_malone]

Pat,
I was thinking of Plainfield and Mountain Ridge as I wrote this and also Aronimink
So "not difficult" seems to have morphed into "easy" for some tv commentators

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

The first two holes at Mountain Ridge, Plainfield and Wanamoissett are about as difficult as you can get.
Pinehurst # 2 doesn't start too easy either

It's wasn't unusual for the ODG's to write one thing and do another.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Chris,

The first two holes at Mountain Ridge, Plainfield and Wanamoissett are about as difficult as you can get.
Pinehurst # 2 doesn't start too easy either

It's wasn't unusual for the ODG's to write one thing and do another.

Pat, I wasn't making a judgement, stating my personal point-of-view or jumping hastily to a conclusion - rather just doing some fact-based reporting (which I know is unusual around here these days) and quoting a book that Donald Ross wrote about golf course design in response to original poster's question...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Chris,

The first two holes at Mountain Ridge, Plainfield and Wanamoissett are about as difficult as you can get.
Pinehurst # 2 doesn't start too easy either

It's wasn't unusual for the ODG's to write one thing and do another.

Pat,
You've mentioned 3, maybe 4, Ross courses with 'difficult' starts - I expect a report after you run through his remaining 397 openers.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

The first two holes at Mountain Ridge, Plainfield and Wanamoissett are about as difficult as you can get.
Pinehurst # 2 doesn't start too easy either

It's wasn't unusual for the ODG's to write one thing and do another.

Pat, I wasn't making a judgement, stating my personal point-of-view or jumping hastily to a conclusion - rather just doing some fact-based reporting (which I know is unusual around here these days) and quoting a book that Donald Ross wrote about golf course design in response to original poster's question...

Chris,

Actions speak louder than words.

Ross contradicted himself by designing and building courses that had difficult opening holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

The first two holes at Mountain Ridge, Plainfield and Wanamoissett are about as difficult as you can get.
Pinehurst # 2 doesn't start too easy either

It's wasn't unusual for the ODG's to write one thing and do another.

Pat,
You've mentioned 3, maybe 4, Ross courses with 'difficult' starts - I expect a report after you run through his remaining 397 openers.

Those courses came quickly to mind since I've played them.
Ditto Aronomink.
Seminole's 2nd hole is also difficult.

Since I haven't played all 397 courses, I can only comment on those I have played.

I'll have to rely on those who have played all 397 to fill me in.
 

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Chris,

The first two holes at Mountain Ridge, Plainfield and Wanamoissett are about as difficult as you can get.
Pinehurst # 2 doesn't start too easy either

It's wasn't unusual for the ODG's to write one thing and do another.

Pat, I wasn't making a judgement, stating my personal point-of-view or jumping hastily to a conclusion - rather just doing some fact-based reporting (which I know is unusual around here these days) and quoting a book that Donald Ross wrote about golf course design in response to original poster's question...

Chris,

Actions speak louder than words.

Ross contradicted himself by designing and building courses that had difficult opening holes.

Thanks Pat, that was helpful.

I am guessing with nearly 400 courses to his name, some would consider a few of them "not easy" or "difficult" and am also guessing that while Ross may have had an ideal, there were times when he went against that ideal...

I would point you, again, to the original post and the question that was asked...

[Carl Johnson]

Whatever Ross may have said, here's some learning from the little biography of Stanley Thompson, The Toronto Terror, by James A. Barclay (excerpted from pages 102 - 105).

"In 1913, Alister MacKenzie listed in a British greenkeeping magazine his famous '13 Points,' the points he considered essential to the ideal course. . . .

"In 1923, Stanley Thompson came out with his own booklet . . . .  

"Many of the recommendations found in Harry Colt's 'Golf Architecture' (one chapter in Sutton's The Book of the Links) are MacKenzie's 13 Points at greater length.  Colt added a few of his own, and Thompson agreed.

"Colt: 'Personally, I like a fairly long, plain sailing hole for the first one. . .  a couple of par [par 4] holes at the commencement gets the players away from the first tee.'

"Thompson: 'The starting holes [par 4s] should be comparatively easy, so as not to congest the course . . . ."

"Colt and Thompson were echoing the words of Willie Park in his The Game of Golf published in 1896. 'The first two or three holes should, if possible, be fairly long ones, and should be, comparatively speaking, easy to play.  Holes of a good length permit the players to get away without congesting the links.'"

So: "plain sailing," and "easy" from Parks, Colt and Thompson.  "Long" sneaks in a couple of times, too.  What I find interesting is the emphasis all (including Ross - see Chris Hufnagel's post above, subject to Pat's caveat below) give is not on easing the golfer into his round (the friendly handshake), as I sometimes hear, but on the pace of play issue.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thanks Pat, that was helpful.

I am guessing with more than 400 courses to his name, some would consider a few of them "not easy" or "difficult" and am also guessing that while Ross may have had an ideal, there were times when he went against that ideal...

I would point you, again, to the original post and the question that was asked...

Chris,

The problem with your citation is the source itself.

"Golf Has Never Failed Me" is an edited and supplemented version of a manuscript written prior to WW I.

Hence, we don't know if the statement you quoted was actually written by Ross, edited or supplemented.
We don't know the date nor the circumstances by which the alleged statement was made.

In light of the fact that Ross's work contradicts his alleged writings, we have to weigh his actions versus his alleged written word.
I tend to err on the side of what the architect actually produced in the field, rather than what he wrote or allegedly wrote.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Thanks Pat, that was helpful.

I am guessing with more than 400 courses to his name, some would consider a few of them "not easy" or "difficult" and am also guessing that while Ross may have had an ideal, there were times when he went against that ideal...

I would point you, again, to the original post and the question that was asked...

Chris,

The problem with your citation is the source itself.

"Golf Has Never Failed Me" is an edited and supplemented version of a manuscript written prior to WW I.

Hence, we don't know if the statement you quoted was actually written by Ross, edited or supplemented.
We don't know the date nor the circumstances by which the alleged statement was made.

In light of the fact that Ross's work contradicts his alleged writings, we have to weigh his actions versus his alleged written word.
I tend to err on the side of what the architect actually produced in the field, rather than what he wrote or allegedly wrote.

Pat, I think you raise a valid point about the book vs. the manuscript, but then you go on to use a sample size of less than 1% to try and add credibility to your argument - which at this point, you lose me again.

Mr. Bradley Klein quotes from Golf Has Never Failed Me in his very good book on Mr. Ross, Discovering Donald Ross – considering Mr. Klein is probably one of the leading experts on Ross and his body of work and he opted to quote from the book, I thought it safe to do the same to help answer the question posed here on GCA.

So, if we were keeping score, we have a book with Mr. Ross's musings on golf course architecture where it clearly states that the opening holes should not be "too difficult" and your three selected examples (of nearly 400 courses) where you believe the start to be "too difficult" - at this point, I might err on the side of Mr. Ross's words to help answer the original poster's question...

[Mike_Trenham]

Some of the holes mentioned as difficult are mostly difficult at the green while there is room off the tee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I think you raise a valid point about the book vs. the manuscript,
but then you go on to use a sample size of less than 1% to try and add credibility to your argument - which at this point, you lose me again.

Chris,

I didn't offer the courses I cited as "a sample size", I merely cited courses that I've played where the first two holes are challenging, not soft.

Given the time I could reference every Ross I've played as listed by C&W, then evaluate the first two holes, but short of that I just cited the course that came to mind. 

Mr. Bradley Klein quotes from Golf Has Never Failed Me in his very good book on Mr. Ross, Discovering Donald Ross – considering Mr. Klein is probably one of the leading experts on Ross and his body of work and he opted to quote from the book, I thought it safe to do the same to help answer the question posed here on GCA.

Actions still speak louder than words

So, if we were keeping score, we have a book with Mr. Ross's musings on golf course architecture where it clearly states that the opening holes should not be "too difficult" and your three selected examples (of nearly 400 courses) where you believe the start to be "too difficult" - at this point, I might err on the side of Mr. Ross's words to help answer the original poster's question...

You already agreed that the quote is dubious and now you want to double down on it.
Actually I cited 4 courses by including Aronomink.
5 if you include # 2.
Given time I could cite more, like Crestmont, Montclair and Belmont
You haven't cited one in rebuttal and keep referencing a quote that you admit is questionable.

What Ross courses have you played ?