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Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
First Hole: 386-364-364-348-391-291








Second Hole: 391-385-365-348-333-301














Third Hole: 428-416-416-318-333-301










Fourth Hole: 501-443-389-389-318-275










Fifth Hole: 306-301-301-286-246-246








Sixth Hole: 187-167-161-161-144-121








« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 12:03:20 PM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2014, 10:01:35 PM »
The Golf Club? 

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2014, 10:18:00 PM »
CC Buffalo...looks pretty neat.  Played it once in 2008 or so...was very cool.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2014, 10:27:02 PM »
This should have won restoration of the year--sorry Paramount, but this was multiple times more dramatic of an improvement!

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2014, 10:29:41 PM »
RoMo- Keep em coming. The "Volcano" hole looks amazing!!!!

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2014, 10:38:40 PM »
That's CCB. One of my favorites. When it (rarely) showed up on our junior schedule I was ecstatic.

Kid I was playing with one time topped his tee shot off the first tee and it hit the road so hard it shot forward about 200 yards and into the fairway!

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2014, 12:13:39 AM »
That's CCB. One of my favorites. When it (rarely) showed up on our junior schedule I was ecstatic.

Kid I was playing with one time topped his tee shot off the first tee and it hit the road so hard it shot forward about 200 yards and into the fairway!

Wow, the 6th is a stunner.  Is CCB a Tilly?
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2014, 12:47:34 AM »
Of the 50+ Ross courses I've played, CCB is the best one so far!  I've played #2 over 20 times pre restoration.  That may now top this, but I think Seminole, Plainfield, Wannamoiset, Rhode Island, and Salem fall short of this greatness!  The pictures do not capture how these greens can only be rivaled by Seminole, Plainfield, and Barton Hills. There is an unbelievable amount of internal contour with a couple of very severe greens thrown in for good effect.

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2014, 12:53:37 AM »
That's CCB. One of my favorites. When it (rarely) showed up on our junior schedule I was ecstatic.

Kid I was playing with one time topped his tee shot off the first tee and it hit the road so hard it shot forward about 200 yards and into the fairway!

Wow, the 6th is a stunner.  Is CCB a Tilly?

Ross. The only Tilly OD in WNY I'm aware of is Niagara Falls CC. He is listed as doing work at Irondequoit, but I'm not sure how much. I've played that many times and it doesn't feel like a Tillinghast.

The 6th is among the best holes in all of golf. The pictures almost don't do it justice.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2014, 06:37:15 AM »
Ross. The only Tilly OD in WNY I'm aware of is Niagara Falls CC. He is listed as doing work at Irondequoit, but I'm not sure how much. I've played that many times and it doesn't feel like a Tillinghast.

The 6th is among the best holes in all of golf. The pictures almost don't do it justice.

Very little AWT left at NFCC. Been RTJ'd, et al, to death.

The only lens that captures #6 is the human eye.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2014, 06:43:16 AM »
Ross. The only Tilly OD in WNY I'm aware of is Niagara Falls CC. He is listed as doing work at Irondequoit, but I'm not sure how much. I've played that many times and it doesn't feel like a Tillinghast.

The 6th is among the best holes in all of golf. The pictures almost don't do it justice.

Very little AWT left at NFCC. Been RTJ'd, et al, to death.

The only lens that captures #6 is the human eye.

Don't you mean "Nicol Thompson'd" to death?

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2014, 06:48:29 AM »
Of the 50+ Ross courses I've played, CCB is the best one so far!  I've played #2 over 20 times pre restoration.  That may now top this, but I think Seminole, Plainfield, Wannamoiset, Rhode Island, and Salem fall short of this greatness!  The pictures do not capture how these greens can only be rivaled by Seminole, Plainfield, and Barton Hills. There is an unbelievable amount of internal contour with a couple of very severe greens thrown in for good effect.

WOW! Looks like I've got to shuffle off to Buffalo.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2014, 06:49:31 AM »
That's what I meant. How did AWT's name get associated with NFCC again?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2014, 06:58:43 AM »
Of the 50+ Ross courses I've played, CCB is the best one so far!  I've played #2 over 20 times pre restoration.  That may now top this, but I think Seminole, Plainfield, Wannamoiset, Rhode Island, and Salem fall short of this greatness!  The pictures do not capture how these greens can only be rivaled by Seminole, Plainfield, and Barton Hills. There is an unbelievable amount of internal contour with a couple of very severe greens thrown in for good effect.

RMD -
Have you played the greens since the  recent restoration?  If you loved them before, you'd be even more enamored now.  Many slopes were added/enhanced, especially around the corners of some expanded greens.

EDIT: Sorry, just  noted your comment re: restoration of the year, so you obviously have seen the restored greens.

As for the restoration of the year, I may still have to give the nod to Paramount.  The green restoration at CCB may have been more dramatic, but in other areas, I felt like the CCB restoration was still torn between a culture of "punishment" (trees / unplayable native close to corridors) as opposed to enhancing the fun / playability (and letting the greens provide the challenge).    I was surprised to see some newly planted trees at CCB, which tells me the "tree culture" contingent of the club is still very strong. 




« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 07:28:37 AM by Kevin Lynch »

Tom Fagerli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2014, 07:24:19 AM »
Wow! The Sixth hole looks fantastic!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2014, 09:14:29 AM »
As for the restoration of the year, I may still have to give the nod to Paramount.  The green restoration at CCB may have been more dramatic, but in other areas, I felt like the CCB restoration was still torn between a culture of "punishment" (trees / unplayable native close to corridors) as opposed to enhancing the fun / playability (and letting the greens provide the challenge).    I was surprised to see some newly planted trees at CCB, which tells me the "tree culture" contingent of the club is still very strong. 

I hate doing this to a friend, especially one I'll be traveling with in a week, but I must.

1) Have you seen Paramount since the restoration was completed? If not...

2) I counted one new tree, nowhere near a playing corridor, meant to protect the 2nd tee from wayward balls off #9. If there were more, I missed them.

3) There was one truly unplayable area of native grass (right of #14) that I recall. At The Club, certain greens abut the drive zone of adjacent fairways and decisions have to be made as to what works. I find the whole notion of "Restoration Of The Year" a ludicrous thing, as any super will tell you that subsequent moves are made to enhance the restoration. I do not doubt that the 14th hole will see a thinning of that wee jungle in the coming months.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2014, 09:21:31 AM »
Seventh Hole: 504-475-458-446-446-382








Eighth Hole: 237-207-160-160-136-136








Ninth Hole: 444-423-358-358-332-332










Tenth Hole: 326-315-315-292-292-259










Eleventh Hole: 453-404-404-331-331-289










Twelfth Hole: 187-156-143-143-118-106

Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2014, 11:00:26 AM »
I have had the great fortune to have played Paramount quite a few times in tournaments over a 20+ year span. And have played there during and just before final restoration completion--it is a great course that came to life.  At the beginning of last summer I had the opportunity to play my way from coast to coast and found the two surprises of the year--incredible restorations of CCB and Barton Hills.  Restoration of 2013 really should be a tie  ewen these two Ross masterpieces.  As for CCB, it has everything great--uphill and downhill par 3's,  long and short par 4's, reachable and unreachable 5's.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2014, 11:06:00 AM »
The pictures cannot capture how the 8th can play like a classic Biarritz.   A hot shot landing short will minimalism the hazard trouble and the ground works for this play.  This is an exceptional long par 3 that easily gets overlooked because it follows the all world 6th

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2014, 07:40:11 PM »
As for CCB, it has everything great--uphill and downhill par 3's,  long and short par 4's, reachable and unreachable 5's.

The Club now has two par five holes (7 and 13), neither of which is unreachable. RMD may have considered the 13th the unreachable par five, but I can assure him that it is but a trifle for the juventus of this age. The 4th is now a long par four, as is the 17th. The tee on 7 was backed up nearly to the 13th fairway, and the 13th tee deck can go no farther back. 4 is backed up nearly to the 7th fairway and 17 is backed abut to the bunkers on the 16th green. Alas, The Club will never have an unreachable par five, but it doesn't need one.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club Buffalo
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2014, 08:57:56 PM »
So that's what it looks like. :)

Lived in The Buff till W was 23, but never was able to see this gem. (Which is fine by me!)

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2014, 09:40:22 PM »
As for the restoration of the year, I may still have to give the nod to Paramount.  The green restoration at CCB may have been more dramatic, but in other areas, I felt like the CCB restoration was still torn between a culture of "punishment" (trees / unplayable native close to corridors) as opposed to enhancing the fun / playability (and letting the greens provide the challenge).    I was surprised to see some newly planted trees at CCB, which tells me the "tree culture" contingent of the club is still very strong. 

I hate doing this to a friend, especially one I'll be traveling with in a week, but I must.

1) Have you seen Paramount since the restoration was completed? If not...

2) I counted one new tree, nowhere near a playing corridor, meant to protect the 2nd tee from wayward balls off #9. If there were more, I missed them.

3) There was one truly unplayable area of native grass (right of #14) that I recall. At The Club, certain greens abut the drive zone of adjacent fairways and decisions have to be made as to what works. I find the whole notion of "Restoration Of The Year" a ludicrous thing, as any super will tell you that subsequent moves are made to enhance the restoration. I do not doubt that the 14th hole will see a thinning of that wee jungle in the coming months.


I can handle it....

1) Between the mid-resto visit we had to Paramount and Joe Bausch's detailed photo tour, I has a sense of Paramount's overall "theme" for the project.  I still sensed a disconnect in the CCB project.  They definitely brought back the original green sizes and cool corners, but didn't embrace the "fun" off the tee.  

Case in point. The 4th is now a 501 yard par 4.  I'm fine with that as it's downwind and we have ridiculous new club/ball technology.  But, why is there a need for a 29 yard fairway pinched by bunkers and trees on the left, and more trees on the right?  It's even more absurd when you consider the excellent front right slope of the green.  We couldn't get close to that pin from 10 yards short (or the fringe, for that matter) yet alone from 200+.  The excessive drive zone protection was slightly understandable when it was  a "short 5", but seems like a disconnect now.  

The only explanation seems to be an excessive level of enamor with trees or punishment.  Where is the allowance for a strategic angle to get relatively close to that pin position?

I'm not criticizing Ron Forse, as I imagine the tree / rough culture is very powerful and hard to sway.  If the ice storm in 2006 hadn't occurred, do you think CCB would look anything like it does today?  To some extent, Urbina & Chapin were likely fighting the same thing at Paramount, as there are still plenty more trees that could go without being missed (IMO).

2) There was much more than 1 new staked tree I spotted off #2, but even without the new plantings, there were still redundant hazards on the left side.  I managed to hook my drive around the surviving trees, but a minefield of bunkers and nasty native rough awaited beyond them.  Again, it seems like the trees were left there out of aesthetic habit, rather than any golf-related purpose.

I saw new staked plantings on the right of #7 (in between the multiple specimen maples already there).  There were new plantings on the right side of #10 as well, as if the slope of that green and fairway bunkers weren't enough of a defense.  It just seems like there's a Fownes-like obsession with planting a tree anywhere it's remotely possible a wayward shot may not be summarily punished.  I suspect this "punishment mentality" is also the reason those out-of-place Christmas trees remained on the left of #13.

In general, I sensed there wasn't a full appreciation that the severe green contours are meant to reduce the need for "absolute" punishments in the drive zones.

3) I agree that the subsequent moves are integral to the restoration, which is why the recent plantings and unplayable gunge on #14 are not a good indicator (IMO). It reflects a "punishment" mentality, which was not what I expected.  And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I'm not sure it's what Ross had in mind.  


I hope this doesn't come off as overly negative.  I thought the green restorations were phenomenal, with the new 7th, 10th & 11th as the "poster children."  And the course is definitely much more open relative to its prior claustrophobic iteration.  But if that "openness" is more the result of Mother Nature's hand in 2006 rather than an embrace of "playability" by the club, the long term prognosis is concerning.  If the recent tree plantings and unplayable rough is meant to put the teeth back into the drive zones, that seems a bit much considering the more severely contoured greens.

JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club Buffalo
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2014, 08:55:36 AM »
Kevin Lynch -

What is missing from your assessment is that the CCB project is not totally complete.  Yes, we restored greens and bunkers, reinstated bunkers, expanded fairway, reinstated original roll-off areas, cut trees down and planted new ones............. and so on and so on.  These comments about a culture of tree planting and such is totally unfounded.  We have been involved with CCB since the devastating October 2006 storm which damaged or killed over 800 trees.  Our first consulting at the Club was to replant trees because the routing of the course, loss of trees and advances in equipment was putting golfers in dangerous situations.  I can state (because I staked the majority of those trees) that nearly 90% of the trees that have been planted at the Club are for safety purposes.  There was a mass removal to the right of #1 which runs parallel to the driving range; the 2nd holes is parallel to the 9th tee and perpendicular to the 8th green both of which are to the left on the inside of a dogleg.  Trees were planted to eliminate the desire to carry the inside of the dogleg well left of the lone-of-play.  This particular hole and the 14th are also why there are "natural" areas so close to the line of play.  To keep players from taking a dangerous line of play off the tee.  Hole three - trees planted to the right to eliminate bail-outs and also to begin to disguise the new homes to the right of the hole.  Holes 4 & 5 are also parallel holes with A LOT of cross traffic.  The club has slowly bought into the idea of removing more trees massed along the right side.  Trees were planted rear and right of the 5th tee because just like #2 and #9 the tee on #5 can easily be hit by someone playing off of the 14th tee.  Trees were added right of #7 prior to the restoration and shifting of the 7th fairway because balls were headed toward the 11th green.  The rationale continues just as stated.  Safety first.

Additional trees have been planted on holes to fill gaps where golfers have attempted to play outside of the line-of-play, sometimes down another fairway to gain access to a green.  Others to eliminate "bail-out" areas.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Club Buffalo
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2014, 12:20:52 PM »
Six sets of tees?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Club Buffalo
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2014, 12:27:52 PM »
Six sets of tees?

Joe

Joe:

We think alike.  The modern need to have a tee for every player clashes with the intent of classic courses.

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