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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #125 on: June 25, 2014, 12:11:06 PM »
I currently manage a single row system and have managed multi row systems in the past.

The main drawbacks of the single row (our heads have an 18 metre throw) is the definite doubling up of water in the centre versus the edges of the irrigation corridor and the relative lack of flexibility in fairways widths it provides. You are essentially locked into a mostly parallel fairway shape with limited scope to widen areas beyond that throw. It is however achievable if you wish to add the occasional lateral line and head where you require it. For this reason alone, I believe a 2 wire control path to be an essential part of a single row system.

Some advantages include: less heads to worry about for trimming, maintenance, future replacement, they are easier to locate, minimal rough receiving unwanted irrigation, less stations to program, less potential heads jammed on, quicker and easier to perform a system audit.

Multi row systems certainly (in my opinion) offer a more even coverage and greater flexibility to manipulate your water application and tailor it to the different water requirements of areas such as hills or low spots. You also have greater options based on the effects of wind. The big downside is the fact that they require more upfront cost but also they require a lot of time and labour to maintain for many of the same reasons a single row system doesn't.

My preference would be to have more heads but not excessively so. Maybe 2 rows narrowed to 1 in places would be enough to offer possibilities without getting too complicated. Within those 2 rows a combination of different nozzles offering the ability to increase or decrease the radius of the arc once it becomes evident where it  is required.

Regarding single row, I would like to see a design incorporating full circle heads for every second spacing and then in between have adjustable arc heads with dual nozzles that only irrigate the areas being missed by the full circle heads.

Please excuse my rough diagram:



At the end of the day, it is the person controlling the system that dictates the amount of water being applied not the number of irrigation heads.

Grant,

Your schematic is correct, but, that doesn't mean the single row system can't be modified to capture the missed areas.





Grant Saunders

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #126 on: June 25, 2014, 02:50:29 PM »
Patrick

I think you might be misreading my diagram and explanation. There isnt any areas being missed. The idea is that the heads in between the full circle ones are set to only throw the water to the outer part of he fairway where the full circles miss. They dont however apply water to the central part reducing the amount of water being doubled up.

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #127 on: June 25, 2014, 03:47:44 PM »
Grant,
you only over water if you attempt to apply as much water to the edges as you do to the center.
While extremely unorthodox in our golf world of all things being consistent and even, they are intentionally not trying to get as much water on the edges as in the center. It looked extreme during the Open as they dried it way down, just like they try and do to every course that hosts the US Open. But of all warm season grasses, bermuda does best at maintaining turf quality with deficit irrigation, and they do get decent amounts of rain at Pinehurst.

I really don't want to rehash this much more as I know someone is about to drop in behind me with a speech about more heads = more even application of water...I know that....they are way past worrying about an even application of water. They are using a deficit irrigation model which is why they cut their water use by 70% even thought they only removed 35% (or so) of their turf areas.

They are in a completely different place then most of the rest of the golf world. I'm not being critical when I say that, they just are and continuing to apply conventional wisdom does not help to explain what they are doing there.

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #128 on: June 25, 2014, 04:09:54 PM »

In other words, this whole process was very carefully thought through. Tom D has talked a lot on here about how he and his crew work hard to blur the lines between fairway, green and rough, and how he hates straight lines. This is exactly the same: by ensuring that, as you get further from the centreline, the turf will get less water, you ensure a progressive transition from maintained turf to native, not a sharp line (which is what you would get if you had a row of part circle heads down the outside of your intended fairway).

To me this is what is most radical of all about the Pinehurst project. Everyone in the industry talks the talk when it comes to water reduction etc, but very few embrace this concept of blurred lines - for the overwhelming majority, 'definition' is a great thing and to be sought after, and if anyone points out that straight lines are unnatural and jarring, you end up with the curving fairway cut so many courses use, not an improvement imo.

It is true that this blurring of the edge does potentially have a negative impact on strategy when the design of a hole calls for the ideal tee shot to be placed close to one edge, but only if the _playing_ quality (as opposed to the aesthetic quality) of the turf is worse as a result, and I haven't heard too many voices suggesting that was so at Pinehurst.

Of course, whether or not this approach is a good idea is, in the end, a value judgement, and thus anyone can legitimately disagree. What I think is not debatable is that the restoration project achieved the goals it set out to achieve. None of this happened by accident.

I am all for the progression and blurring of the edges, and avoiding the straight lines. But I do believe you should be able to do this without the super green artificial line in the middle, by adding more heads. They can be smaller heads, and they dont need to be a full wall to wall system.

I would add as well that some of the native areas at P2 do have a pretty concrete line where fairway stops and native starts, so I can't see how irrigation would make that worse.

Grant Saunders gives a good explanation about the shortfalls of center line only above on this thread.

It would be interesting to hear from superintendents that are managing courses with a more comprehensive irrigation system, while maintaining firm conditions, low use of water, and are managing to blur the edges, producing great playability and a natural look.

I promise photos of one example where this is going to be tried, sadly not until January 2016, as the fescues need water for grow in during the next Southern Hemisphere summer.  

It would be great to hear from C&C, and other involved at Pinehurst if the single line irrigation was something that was debated internally with several pros and cons thrown out, or if it was never in doubt on how to proceed.

Again, Pinehurst is as fine a course as I have seen, and I congratulate ownership, C&C, superintendent and crew for what was done with the course. I believe they have set one of the best examples for others to follow and I just hope to learn from their experience.

There is an interview where Ben and Bill talk about the single row and how they came to the idea based on some old aerials where they could see the mainline down the center of each hole and they use that as a guide. I don't know if that is what you are looking for but I found it to be a fascinating interview.

My understanding of Pinehurst #2 irrigation, and I'm hearing this from a friend of a friend, is they do have single head control.

Think of it like this as I sense you'll understand my point, we have never in history had better materials to work with, better control systems, and many would argue better heads. (some old timers loved the old impacts, and I liked them too)  But, we still feel like every head on a course must be spaced exactly the same distance and all have the same nozzles regardless of topography, prevailing wind, or hole shape. We know that field changes are made and heads nozzled up/down, arcs adjusted, and angle of throw changed.
With software available, or using simple catch cans, or even better yet, measuring and recording soil moisture, we can put in larger nozzles where we need more distance, smaller ones where we don't and we can do the run time calcs to run proper cycle times. My point, this idea that this is your grandad's single row system is nuts. C & C are not stupid and I don't think the people that care for P2 are either. they have computers, irrigation consultants, soil moisture measuring equipment, and everything else they need to apply the water exactly as they'd like.

We need to look at this differently.

  
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 04:48:26 PM by Don Mahaffey »

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #129 on: June 25, 2014, 04:54:14 PM »


There is an interview where Ben and Bill talk about the single row and how they came to the idea based on some old aerials where they could see the mainline down the center of each hole and they use that as a guide. I don't know if that is what you are looking for but I found it to be a fascinating interview.

My understanding of Pinehurst #2 irrigation, and I'm hearing this from a friend of a friend, is they do have single head control, and they are creative with their nozzles.

Think of it like this as I sense you'll understand my point, we have never in history had better materials to work with, better control systems, and many would argue better heads. (some old timers loved the old impacts, and I liked them too)  But, we still feel like every head on a course must be spaced exactly the same distance and all have the same nozzles regardless of topography, prevailing wind, or hole shape. We know that field changes are made and heads nozzled up/down, arcs adjusted, and angle of throw changed.
With software available, or using simple catch cans, or even better yet, measuring and recording soil moisture, we can put in larger nozzles where we need more distance, smaller ones where we don't and we can do the run time calcs to run proper cycle times. My point, this idea that this is your grandad's single row system is nuts. C & C are not stupid and I don't think the people that care for P2 are either. they have computers, irrigation consultants, soil moisture measuring equipment, and everything else they need to apply the water exactly as they'd like.

We need to look at this differently and quit with this idea that it will not work.

Do I think it would work on a brand new course growing cool season turf in an more arid area, no, I don't. So it is no indictment of what you are doing and I wish you well.  


Thanks Don. All good points. For the record, I never said this would not work, on the contrary, I think it worked superbly and love what they did.

I read a very short excerpt of the interview, and I believe the central idea was restoring what was there before. I even think I read somewhere that they uncovered original piping. I will try to find the full interview.

I am just trying to see if a slightly different model would work as well or better in other situations.




Patrick_Mucci

Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #130 on: June 25, 2014, 09:44:38 PM »
Patrick

I think you might be misreading my diagram and explanation. There isnt any areas being missed. The idea is that the heads in between the full circle ones are set to only throw the water to the outer part of he fairway where the full circles miss. They dont however apply water to the central part reducing the amount of water being doubled up.

Got it.


Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #131 on: June 25, 2014, 10:01:09 PM »
Thanks Don. All good points. For the record, I never said this would not work, on the contrary, I think it worked superbly and love what they did.

I read a very short excerpt of the interview, and I believe the central idea was restoring what was there before. I even think I read somewhere that they uncovered original piping. I will try to find the full interview.

I am just trying to see if a slightly different model would work as well or better in other situations.


The model works, it just needs to be adapted for your specific conditions.Then it is deciding where you want ideal coverage, and where you want the coverage to start to lean out, and what kind of turf you'll maintain in those areas.  I believe one key is looking at what you need for long term maintenance, and then making that work for grow in, even if it means the grow in takes a little longer.


MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #132 on: June 26, 2014, 08:45:36 AM »
Thanks Don. All good points. For the record, I never said this would not work, on the contrary, I think it worked superbly and love what they did.

I read a very short excerpt of the interview, and I believe the central idea was restoring what was there before. I even think I read somewhere that they uncovered original piping. I will try to find the full interview.

I am just trying to see if a slightly different model would work as well or better in other situations.


The model works, it just needs to be adapted for your specific conditions.Then it is deciding where you want ideal coverage, and where you want the coverage to start to lean out, and what kind of turf you'll maintain in those areas.  I believe one key is looking at what you need for long term maintenance, and then making that work for grow in, even if it means the grow in takes a little longer.



The situation I am involved in, if you dont water the full fairway lightly several times per day during grow in, any seed (and soil) just blows away. There is also obvious reasons to show a finished product sooner rather than later. So the fast, firm, dry conditions will be a gradual process.

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #133 on: June 26, 2014, 09:50:51 AM »
The irrigation during grow in isn't all that different anywhere. Short, frequent cycles are the norm with the only real difference being the time inbetween based on climate.

But where I may differ with you, and with most of the golf world in general, is the need to open quickly. Unless you have a short growing season and need to get established very quickly, the extras we put in for grow in....heads, pipe, pump station, wells, storage...often run into the 100s of 1000s if not more. Opening a few months early does not recoup that money. I realize sometimes it is political in that you have to show progress, and there are other reasons as well, but IMO. the cost benefit equation does not often come out on the positive side when we install extra equipment just to open a little sooner.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #134 on: June 27, 2014, 11:10:22 AM »
The irrigation during grow in isn't all that different anywhere. Short, frequent cycles are the norm with the only real difference being the time inbetween based on climate.

But where I may differ with you, and with most of the golf world in general, is the need to open quickly. Unless you have a short growing season and need to get established very quickly, the extras we put in for grow in....heads, pipe, pump station, wells, storage...often run into the 100s of 1000s if not more. Opening a few months early does not recoup that money. I realize sometimes it is political in that you have to show progress, and there are other reasons as well, but IMO. the cost benefit equation does not often come out on the positive side when we install extra equipment just to open a little sooner.

Very short growing season and erosion concerns, it is a very windy sight. On the other hand, no pumps or wells! Pure gravity.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #135 on: June 27, 2014, 05:42:30 PM »
OK, now you have to tell me more...here or off line....please :)

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #136 on: June 28, 2014, 09:03:54 PM »
OK, now you have to tell me more...here or off line....please :)

Will send an off line message. Best.

MClutterbuck

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #137 on: June 13, 2024, 12:28:41 PM »
Pinehurst #2 looking great and firm. Better than 2014 in my opinion.


I know Pinehurst #10 did not attempt the single row irrigation system.


Did they abandon the single row system on #2? If they did, I would love to see overall usage of water and would hope they are using the same amount.