Arnold Palmer, hypocrite

[astavrides]

Of course the other major difference in PB are the cart paths that were introduced later that decade.  Look at this twosome (husband and wife?) leaving the 7th green pulling their handcarts.  That's a site not seen in decades.

they let me use a pullcart when I played it in 2000, but not in 2013.

[Matthew Petersen]

I've posted this before, but here are a bunch of low-tech screen shots of the 1963 Shell's match.

https://picasaweb.google.com/113763297251437641936/Pebble

Sample:

That's a fine picture, though it mainly shows what everyone expected from irrigation systems in the 1960's ... no wall-to-wall systems like today.  For every drop of water they save by their more "efficient" coverage, they lose two drops by irrigating more acres.

That's a good point. Every part of the course that was getting water was VERY green.

[Terry Lavin]

Great thread:  Throw bomb and run away.

[Gary Sato]

Great thread:  Throw bomb and run away.

OK, I'll refute Mr. Mucci almost completely.  Why he adds Jack Nicklaus to the argument doesn't make sense?  Nicklaus rebuilt the 5th hole in 1998.

In 1999, Palmer, Eastwood, Ferris and others purchased Pebble Beach.  They are the general partners and then sold limited partnership shares.  Palmers involvement as a GP is mainly centered around the golf operations.

From the web site,

"In the summer of 1999, Arnold Palmer, Richard Ferris, Peter Ueberroth and Clint Eastwood—along with William Perocchi and GE Pension, offered limited partnership interests with the understanding that the plan was to never again sell Pebble Beach Company to another ownership group."

If you want to throw Nicklaus under the bus, he joined the group as a limited partner but asked for his money back during the recession which didn't sit well with the partnership.

Further evidence of Palmer failure to walk the walk can be seen at Spyglass and Spanish Bay.  The first 5 holes of Spyglass have been completely cleaned up and all of the ice plant removed.  Mr. Mucci is correct that the partnership does take full control of Spyglass in the next few years and they have already planned out the changes, including renovating the member clubhouse behind the 18th to a full clubhouse and reversing the nines.

Spanish Bay is another story which would take a long time to explain but is briefly touched on by some other comments.  They tried the firm and fast (brownish) conditions but supposedly had complaints by Asian customers that they wanted green lush conditioning.  It is now green upon green like Pebble Beach.

[Mike Sweeney]

Great thread:  Throw bomb and run away.

OK, I'll refute Mr. Mucci almost completely. 

Gary,

 i love to pick on Pat and Terry, but I am confused by your post. Is it possible for you to clarify the status of:

• Arnold Palmer's ownership in PB
• Jack Nicklaus' ownership in PB

Honestly, I am not trying to go all Mucci on you, I just don't understand what you posted.

PS. See my post about Phil first, please.

[Jordan Caron]

I would imagine the people paying $500+ for the green fee and hotel fee would be less than impressed if the course had too many brown areas. Sure it would be great to see it play that well but Pebble is a business after all and you have to please your guests and meet their expectations.

[Kevin_Reilly]

That's a good point. Every part of the course that was getting water was VERY green.

Caveat: the re-broadcast of that match was done using a digitally enhanced version of the original film (so they could have something presentable on modern TV's on an HD channel).  Whoever did the enhancement could have increased the color saturation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would imagine the people paying $500+ for the green fee and hotel fee would be less than impressed if the course had too many brown areas. Sure it would be great to see it play that well but Pebble is a business after all and you have to please your guests and meet their expectations.

Jordan,

That's exactly right,............ until the culture of golf and the expectations as to course conditions change.

As it stands now, Pebble Beach is packed, with tee times begining shortly after sun-up, so they must be doing something right to attract that many golfers at those prices.

[Jason Thurman]

You even spun a sequel thread out of this one (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58787.0.html) which leads me to this question: given the image of Pebble's 7th posted in the sequel thread, how can anyone say that there are no dunes on the course? Was that image faked by trucking in tons of sand to make the point look dunesy?

Actually, yes. Search the forum for "imitation sand dunes" to learn more. They were cool looking, but impossible to maintain.

[Jon Wiggett]

I would imagine the people paying $500+ for the green fee and hotel fee would be less than impressed if the course had too many brown areas. Sure it would be great to see it play that well but Pebble is a business after all and you have to please your guests and meet their expectations.

And that is the problem golf will face in a nutshell. How you going to produce GREEN courses with a lot less water? Maybe the proverbial rose tint will need to be changed to green

Brown is not a sign of lower or worse standards. Indeed it is often a sign of better standards especially looked at from playing quality, environmentally and the business mantra of efficiency.

Jon

[Rick Shefchik]

I really believe we're at the beginning of a significant turnaround in the public's perception of the ideal golf course. More brown grass and fewer trees will not be the preferred condition in my lifetime, but each year -- thanks to more extensive coverage of the Open Championship, more majors played at U.S. courses like Pinehurst, Shinnecock Hills, Whistling Straits, Chambers Bay, and the continued success of resorts like Bandon Dunes and Streamsong -- a few more light bulbs get switched on. Water restrictions will help, too. We're headed in the right direction.

[Rich Goodale]

Atractive headline, but poor content on this thread.

Arnie's talking about his love for Pinehurst in the 40's.  Who here but Pat Mucci's dad has a clue about what the course was like then?  Arnie was in his teens and early 20's when he played there in the 40's.  Of course it has changed since!  Of course he liked a course better when he could really play than what it is now that he is nearling the end of his life?  And who is better to know how different it plays now than it did than than Arnie?  I've only played #2 once, in the mid 80's, and it was overwatered and lackluster and nothing at all reminiscent of Dornoch.  I might like today's set-up better or I might not.  It's just my opinion, as it is Arnies.

As for Pebble.  I played there first in the mid-70's and most recently last October, and I would prefer the mid-70's set-up vs. today's, but that is just my own bias, influenced (perhaps like Arnie) by the fact when I first played there I was relatively young and now I am relatively old and by the intricacies of memory.

As for the implied focus of this thread, and most of the other #2 threads this week--which seems to be brown-ness rather than green-ness and random vs. cultivated "roughs"--beware what you might wish for.  Golf courses maintained at the edge of death can be spectacularly challenging and interesting (I saw this condition at the last Open at Hoylake and have played it a few times in competition at Dornoch and even at my modest home course of Aberdour).  It is impossible to keep any course at such an edge, and those who advocate it as a norm are just kidding themselves.

Rich

[RJ_Daley]

Well stated Rich.  When it comes to mainteance of two of the most highdollar-world reknown resort complexes, where so many rounds are played, year around, they can't maintatn it to the tastes of 1500 internet geeks.  PB did not get the number of rounds like now, even in the 60s early 70s.  (Nor the green fees)

Imposed water restrctions may allow the supers to be creative and get excused from presenting tournament green for a short term.   But, if the course isn't brought back to pristine green at some point, the world travellers seeking their idea of a golf day in shangri-la will stop coming and paying the outrageous fees.

The thread name while possibly meant to be thought provoking in a good sense, doesn't do much to elevate GCA.COM with casual eyes that google search ideas, and don't know our debating academy, beard pulling culture.  With AP reaching that venerable elder statesman time of life, his known kindnesses and contributions deserve some respect IMHO.
 

[Gary Sato]

   But, if the course isn't brought back to pristine green at some point, the world travellers seeking their idea of a golf day in shangri-la will stop coming and paying the outrageous fees.

Disagree and this is the thinking that is wrong with golf.  Where are they going to go, Scotland, Australia, Bandon, Pinehurst, Cabot, Nebraska?

Sorry this title has been so rousing but I defer back to my original post, Arnold Palmer has NEVER walked the walk regarding architecture and maintenance. 

[Ryan Coles]

I find it strange the amount of comment about extortionate greenfees yet no one seems to bat an eyelid when members are paying way more on a price per round basis and tens or even hundreds of thousands on joining fees.

Compared to say somewhere like Doral, Pinehurst and Pebble seems reasonable value.

[Mike Hendren]

That's a little harsh.  The man is an octogenarian.

Your honor, has the dude that owns the Clippers set a precedent?

Bogey

[Mike Sweeney]

Sorry this title has been so rousing but I defer back to my original post, Arnold Palmer has NEVER walked the walk regarding architecture and maintenance.  

Gary,

I have probably played Bay Hill 4-6 times over the last 10 years during the holidays in Florida.

I can only remember one time when the greens were mucked up, and they are constantly tinkering with the course and updating it for the modern pro game. Now here on Fancy Pants GCA.com, those changes are never going to be loved. Bay Hill is basically wall to wall green, with Florida ponds and other cliche Florida attributes. I don't have the Bay Hill history book here with me, but if I remember correctly, Palmer bought the course and and has been tinkering with it ever since.

In terms of Bay Hill, different taste is different than not caring, to me.

Now I have heard some fairly consistent critique of Arnold Palmer Management, specific to The Orchards in Massachusetts. Obviously Palmer is not in Massachusetts day to day, but if you are going to let people use your name you need to take responsibility. Arnold Palmer management took over the management of the Disney courses last year, but I have no view about that change since I typically play "off-property" when we visit Disney.

My views on Pebble Beach were expressed on the other thread -

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58787.msg1381890.html#new

Overall, I don't think Arnold Palmer is above criticism, but as the guy who seems to have made The Open Championship "cool" perhaps he deserves some credit for opening the eyes of golfers in the USA:

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/after-arnold-palmer-came-st-andrews-1960-american-golf-was-never-same-again

[Mike Sweeney]

I find it strange the amount of comment about extortionate greenfees yet no one seems to bat an eyelid when members are paying way more on a price per round basis and tens or even hundreds of thousands on joining fees.

Compared to say somewhere like Doral, Pinehurst and Pebble seems reasonable value.

Ryan,

There have been many many threads on the changes to private golf clubs, the new models, and what is next for private golf. At the core of these changes are the cost issues.