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Gary Sato

Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« on: June 12, 2014, 01:54:53 PM »
Loving Palmers comments regarding Pinehurst. 

" I just thought as that golf course stood in the ’40s when they had the North and South Open and North and South Amateur, that it was impeccable—it was perfect.

Then people came in and changed it. I was just very, very sorry to see that happen, and I’m sorry today it happened. I think it’s still a wonderful golf course, but I think it lost some of the charm.”

http://www.pinehurst.com/news/video-arnold-palmer-2014-u-s-open/


Shouldn't Palmer walk the walk and do the same at Pebble Beach?

How many shades of green do you see at Pebble?  Is there any brown on the fairways?




Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2014, 02:02:55 PM »
That's a little harsh.  The man is an octogenarian.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2014, 02:06:22 PM »
This is ridiculous.  Give the man a break.  If it weren't for him, golf would be VERY different than it is today (and probably not for the better).  

As for Pebble, perhaps he doesn't prefer the way Pebble played in the 40s and 50s?  How is that hypocritical?

Why are so many folks on GCA so bitter?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 02:08:17 PM by Brian Hoover »

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2014, 02:09:36 PM »
The weather is touch different too in North Carolina and Monterrey. Makes for different conditions.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2014, 02:12:25 PM »
Last week Phil Mickelson was an inside trader and now Arnold Palmer is a hypocrite.  Who are we going tear down next on little or no information?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Gary Sato

Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2014, 02:20:04 PM »
What more information would you want?  Have you played Pebble Beach in the last 10 years?

The same could be said for Latrobe CC and Bay Hill. 

Mr. Kelly, should we delve into his signing with Callaway and then going against the USGA and endorsing the ERC II driver for recreational play.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2014, 02:20:42 PM »
Say what you will about Gary Sato, but you have to respect him for figuring out a way to get clicks without resorting to the cheap teaser title. A lesser man would have titled this thread "Do Arnold Palmer's Comments..."

As to the question posed, I'm a little bored by all the guys on this site who think they know how to "fix" Pebble Beach and Augusta National.

#LetPebbleBePebble
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Josh Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2014, 02:46:16 PM »



I posted this on Twitter before seeing this thread.  The Shells Wonderful World of Golf is a great way to see/say what if?  This was 1963.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2014, 03:02:51 PM »
Yes Brian. I've also played Pinehurst. Pebble Beach is my favorite course that I've played.

Pinehurst is a different beast in my mind, because not only did it look worse in the 90s than it did in the 40s, but it was also extremely resource intensive to maintain it as such. The bermuda-coated presentation robbed the course of its character and made it look like an old man's suburban lawn. By scruffing it up a bit, it's regained that character while better embodying its natural environment and reducing maintenance costs, at least in theory. That's a win-win-win.

Pebble has different turf, different terrain, different soil, and a different climate as compared to Pinehurst. As cool as the old pictures of the faux dunes around 7 and 17 look, they were just that: faux. They were basically impossible to maintain and were incongruous with the rest of Pebble's terrain. I also have seen the footage from the Wonderful World of Golf that Josh mentioned. While it's interesting to see Pebble looking so rough in the context of how high-end it has since become, I don't actually think it looked better back then.

It's a cliffside course, and yet everyone wants to turn it into a sandy-floored dunes course despite the fact that there really aren't any dunes on the property. It's also a rye course in a cool and fairly wet climate, so of course it stays a little greener and a little softer. The nature of its terrain, design, and climate all make it more of an aerial course than Pinehurst, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking it's a course that negates the ground game. I see no reason for Pebble to emulate Pinehurst's presentation. The Pinehurst presentation doesn't work very well in most parts of the country, including Monterey, and it's silly how often people on GCA complain about green grass on courses in temperate, moist climates with cool-weather grasses.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2014, 03:13:31 PM »
Say what you will about Gary Sato, but you have to respect him for figuring out a way to get clicks without resorting to the cheap teaser title. A lesser man would have titled this thread "Do Arnold Palmer's Comments..."

As to the question posed, I'm a little bored by all the guys on this site who think they know how to "fix" Pebble Beach and Augusta National.

#LetPebbleBePebble

I have absolutely no idea what's gotten into Jason.  He's been making sense all year long.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2014, 04:12:57 PM »
Yes Brian. I've also played Pinehurst. Pebble Beach is my favorite course that I've played.

Pinehurst is a different beast in my mind, because not only did it look worse in the 90s than it did in the 40s, but it was also extremely resource intensive to maintain it as such. The bermuda-coated presentation robbed the course of its character and made it look like an old man's suburban lawn. By scruffing it up a bit, it's regained that character while better embodying its natural environment and reducing maintenance costs, at least in theory. That's a win-win-win.

Pebble has different turf, different terrain, different soil, and a different climate as compared to Pinehurst. As cool as the old pictures of the faux dunes around 7 and 17 look, they were just that: faux. They were basically impossible to maintain and were incongruous with the rest of Pebble's terrain. I also have seen the footage from the Wonderful World of Golf that Josh mentioned. While it's interesting to see Pebble looking so rough in the context of how high-end it has since become, I don't actually think it looked better back then.

It's a cliffside course, and yet everyone wants to turn it into a sandy-floored dunes course despite the fact that there really aren't any dunes on the property. It's also a rye course in a cool and fairly wet climate, so of course it stays a little greener and a little softer. The nature of its terrain, design, and climate all make it more of an aerial course than Pinehurst, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking it's a course that negates the ground game. I see no reason for Pebble to emulate Pinehurst's presentation. The Pinehurst presentation doesn't work very well in most parts of the country, including Monterey, and it's silly how often people on GCA complain about green grass on courses in temperate, moist climates with cool-weather grasses.

Well said.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2014, 06:05:52 PM »
I'm a big fan of Pebble though I like how MPCC, Cypress and even Spyglass play more. Perhaps that's due to the grass.

I'm no expert on rye grass but I'd be curious to know how it plays when it's dry and not over watered/seeded?

Monterey is certainly not what I'd call a wet climate with average rainfall of 19 inches. Thinking about our 50+ inches in Oregon where I'm from or 50+ inches in NL where I live. In fact, it's a lot closer to the 2 inches of annual rainfall received by Death Valley so perhaps we should call it a desert course  :P Mediterranean climate is anything but cold and wet. Mild yes, but not cold and wet.

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Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2014, 08:32:41 PM »
Sato,

Admit error and exit, stage left!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2014, 08:49:07 PM »

Gary,

Location................Climate .............and Mother Nature have more to do with the look and play of those two courses.

In addition, Palmer does NOT exercise control over PBGC.

When fog rolls in every day and temperatures are cool it's tough to keep the moisture off the golf course

Comparing the Sand Hills of NC to the Monterey Coast in California is quite a stretch.


Loving Palmers comments regarding Pinehurst. 

" I just thought as that golf course stood in the ’40s when they had the North and South Open and North and South Amateur, that it was impeccable—it was perfect.

Then people came in and changed it. I was just very, very sorry to see that happen, and I’m sorry today it happened. I think it’s still a wonderful golf course, but I think it lost some of the charm.”

http://www.pinehurst.com/news/video-arnold-palmer-2014-u-s-open/


Shouldn't Palmer walk the walk and do the same at Pebble Beach?

How many shades of green do you see at Pebble?  Is there any brown on the fairways?





AKikuchi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2014, 09:02:41 PM »
I'm a big fan of Pebble though I like how MPCC, Cypress and even Spyglass play more. Perhaps that's due to the grass.

I'm no expert on rye grass but I'd be curious to know how it plays when it's dry and not over watered/seeded?

Monterey is certainly not what I'd call a wet climate with average rainfall of 19 inches. Thinking about our 50+ inches in Oregon where I'm from or 50+ inches in NL where I live. In fact, it's a lot closer to the 2 inches of annual rainfall received by Death Valley so perhaps we should call it a desert course  :P Mediterranean climate is anything but cold and wet. Mild yes, but not cold and wet.

David- One thing to keep in mind is the significant impact of fog and dew in Monterey, although I'm not sure how to measure it in relation to annual precipitation. I would imagine an inch of rain goes much further when it's protected by a blanket of fog for half the day. You raise an interesting point though, and I wonder what sort of work has been done on quantifying the effects of fog/dew/humidity on turf conditions.
-Alan

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2014, 10:35:46 PM »
I thought this was going to be a thread about the Callaway ERC.

WW

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2014, 10:37:10 PM »

 Palmer does NOT exercise control over PBGC.
 


Patrick:

He is a part owner, and his company are architectural consultants to the course, which is unusual.  I can't think of another top-100 course where they consult, other than Bay Hill, if it is still a top-100 course.

Gary's choice of words was too strong under the circumstances, but neither should Mr. Palmer's involvement at Pebble be denied.  

I am sure the owners of Pebble Beach are just giving the public what they think they deserve for their $500 green fee, but the state IS in a serious drought emergency.  Also, as we all remember, pretty much every time the U.S. Open has been to Pebble it was plenty brown ... in fact last time [as in 1972] it was so brown everybody worried that they had killed all the grass.

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2014, 10:51:59 PM »
Suffice to say Pebble is significantly greener than at least a couple well regarded courses across the bay, both of which play faster and firmer than Pebblegarden.  Yes, water is at a premium on both sides of the bay, and the drought is ever on the front of the mind.  Pebble should reconsider its early days when hard pan was closer to the norm. 

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2014, 11:31:55 PM »
 ::) :-*

Just watched a snippet of the interview. Maybe we weren't watching the same one as Arnold seemed quite enameled with Pinehurstnthen and now. . He just didn't like the chewy middle .

Hey Gary , don't you think calling the "king" a hypocrite invites same bad karma ?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 11:35:04 PM by archie_struthers »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2014, 11:38:12 PM »

Palmer does NOT exercise control over PBGC.
 


Patrick:

He is a part owner,

I'm aware of that, but so are 500+ other golfers and investors.
At his age, I can't see him getting involved in agronomy issues and fighting Mother Nature.
 
In 2014 I believe that the 50 year membership deal at Spyglass expires.


and his company are architectural consultants to the course, which is unusual.

Especially considering that Nicklaus did the most recent major redesign on # 5.
I guess that ownership has it's perks.
 

I can't think of another top-100 course where they consult, other than Bay Hill, if it is still a top-100 course.

I would think that his control over Bay Hill is considerably more than at PBGC.


Gary's choice of words was too strong under the circumstances, but neither should Mr. Palmer's involvement at Pebble be denied.

I would think that he's more concerned about recapturing length and better putting skills than the color of the grass at PBGC
 

I am sure the owners of Pebble Beach are just giving the public what they think they deserve for their $500 green fee,


I wish it was only $ 500.
It's a little north of $ 500 and they're not quick to refund your money if you play too fast. ;D


but the state IS in a serious drought emergency.  

Very true, but, Monterey has quite a special micro climate, especially since it's right on the ocean


Also, as we all remember, pretty much every time the U.S. Open has been to Pebble it was plenty brown ...

True


in fact last time [as in 1972] it was so brown everybody worried that they had killed all the grass.

That's a great point, one which seems to have been forgotten by most.

In addition, photos, especially in advertisements, are frequently enhanced in order to be more visually appealing and contrast adds to that appeal.

What's new at Streamsong ?


Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2014, 12:10:24 AM »
I've posted this before, but here are a bunch of low-tech screen shots of the 1963 Shell's match.

https://picasaweb.google.com/113763297251437641936/Pebble

Sample:

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2014, 12:19:14 AM »
That 1963 shot is very cool.  I don't think it would be far wrong to describe most of the Monterey Area courses appearing similar at the time.  I know first hand Pasatiempo did, but I neither saw nor played Pebble, nor CPC, until 1967.  When I did, agronomy and the colors of the courses were not my focus. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2014, 12:23:31 AM »
I've posted this before, but here are a bunch of low-tech screen shots of the 1963 Shell's match.

https://picasaweb.google.com/113763297251437641936/Pebble

Sample:



That's a fine picture, though it mainly shows what everyone expected from irrigation systems in the 1960's ... no wall-to-wall systems like today.  For every drop of water they save by their more "efficient" coverage, they lose two drops by irrigating more acres.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2014, 01:07:46 AM »
Of course the other major difference in PB are the cart paths that were introduced later that decade.  Look at this twosome (husband and wife?) leaving the 7th green pulling their handcarts.  That's a site not seen in decades.

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arnold Palmer, hypocrite
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2014, 05:40:04 AM »
Gary Sato, you got people talking about Pebble, so good job. We're all hypocrites at certain points in our lives. A public figure tends to forget what she/he has said/done and what impact her/his interaction has had, in addition to how it is interpreted by the masses.

You even spun a sequel thread out of this one (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58787.0.html) which leads me to this question: given the image of Pebble's 7th posted in the sequel thread, how can anyone say that there are no dunes on the course? Was that image faked by trucking in tons of sand to make the point look dunesy?

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