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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« on: June 12, 2014, 10:56:51 AM »
articulate it, why let them speak?

I'm listening to Mike Davis on Sirius this morning and while his intended message is teriffic, his delivery leaves much to be desired.

He repeated stated that "golfers shouldn't expect "perfect" conditions, and stated twice that they shouldn't expect "perfectly" lush conditions.
The implication to the casual listener/golfer would be that Pinehurst isn't being presented "perfectly" and worse to use the word perfect and lush together implies that lush is indeed the desired/perfect condition.

I would very much like him to describe Pinehurst and its firm, tawny, often brown AS perfect, and that golfers should prefer and DESIRE such conditions,embrace some of the randomness as well as the bouncy fun,------ not be asked to SETTLE for them, which is kind've how he sounded.

I know WHAT he was trying to say, but the head of golf's governing body should be much better at articulating it to the public.
or not speak.....

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2014, 10:59:30 AM »
At least the over watered greens are perfectly receptive.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2014, 11:00:34 AM »
At least the over watered greens are perfectly receptive.

wouldn't a "restoration" require sand greens? ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2014, 11:01:56 AM »
The course this morning does represent a restoration to my youth as a golfer in the early 70's, brown fairways and soft greens.  I have missed those scoring opportunities.

Brent Hutto

Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2014, 11:06:19 AM »
The course this morning does represent a restoration to my youth as a golfer in the early 70's, brown fairways and soft greens.  I have missed those scoring opportunities.

I'll admit to having the same thought, although golf is not something I experienced in my youth. But get the fairways running, eliminate the deep rough and get the greens moderately soft and you have a hack-flattering golf course.

The rolled-off edges and tucked pins will provide some teeth of course but the rest of the "presentation" would suit a lot of non-Open caliber golfers just fine. Unless they have a thing about green.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2014, 11:28:25 AM »
Is anyone still awake?  These greens have to dry out or the most boring Thursday morning in US Open history will morph into me wanting to spend time with my family on Father's Day.  I love watching golf on Father's Day and damn well don't want it ruined by a bunch a scaredy cats.

note:  I predicted you wouldn't believe your eyes.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2014, 11:31:25 AM »
Another example of corporate America (yes USGA is corporate America) saying what the public wants to hear. Mike Davis knows full well what should be said but fears it might paint he and the USGA in a lesser light and thus he makes an asinine statement that a perfectly presented course is less than perfect. Truly sad.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2014, 11:34:43 AM »
I miss the brutal honesty of Tom Meeks.  How can you not love the guy who put Payne Stewart on the clock.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2014, 11:50:39 AM »
Wider is easier than narrower.

Short grass gives the players options and allows them to spin the ball.

Firm means the course plays short.

Without wind, this all equates to easier scoring conditions.

I think the course looks great and plays great.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2014, 11:59:30 AM »
At least the over watered greens are perfectly receptive.

Spot-on, but this isn't all that surprising, given that the Women's Open is next week.  They can take all the chances they want with the fairways, but getting the greens within a hair's breadth of death is not on this week's set-up guide.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2014, 12:11:26 PM »
At least the over watered greens are perfectly receptive.

Spot-on, but this isn't all that surprising, given that the Women's Open is next week.  They can take all the chances they want with the fairways, but getting the greens within a hair's breadth of death is not on this week's set-up guide.

I've been thinking about you and Olympia Fields all morning, not that there is anything wrong with that.  These soft greens will be easier to correct than short rough.  The have to let us see the real greens at Pinehurst.  Even when I played years ago they were firmer and faster than this.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2014, 12:13:20 PM »
Spot-on, but this isn't all that surprising, given that the Women's Open is next week.  They can take all the chances they want with the fairways, but getting the greens within a hair's breadth of death is not on this week's set-up guide.

Getting the greens too severe has not been in the cards since 2004.  I noted after watching their operation at Sebonack last year, how they've got four full-time staff people monitoring the moisture level and speed and firmness of the greens, making sure they do not get out of hand.  They will keep them firm, but they will water them overnight if they have doubts.

Peter Pallotta

Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2014, 12:34:31 PM »
Jeff - someone asked on another thread whether 'sustainability' had been raised by any of the powers that be in relation to the restoration, and how the course looks and plays. I don't remember any such mentions (I may have missed them). I was thinking about why/why not, and then it struck me that sometimes the best explanation is the simplest one, i.e. sustainability hasn't been raised because it's not high on anyone's lists of priorities. Similarly, since Mike Davis seems to be a smart fellow, the fact that he characterized the conditions as less than perfect probably means that he actually wanted to convey that idea.

Peter

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2014, 01:27:33 PM »
Peter, respectfully, when sustainability is spoken of, most people think "what's in it for me?"

In this case Davis has a wonderful opportunity to sell the natural tawny, bouncy  conditions not as tolerable,sustainable, or less than perfect,
but as the ideal (or yes "perfect") conditions which golf can be enjoyed in.

Well heeled (as well as misguided) clubs and memberships hear his message and say "why should we settle for something other than perfect?",
and look at this event as a lark, but they would embrace it if they thought it would make them better than the next course-they simply need to be told that-ESPECIALLY by the head of golf's governing body.
 Look at the crap they've bought into the last 20-40 years-why wouldn't they buy into this if simply explained and phrased properly.
I believe he was TRYING to articulate just that-but he simply did it very poorly.

The key would be for him to use this chance to redefine perfect for the average/casual fan, and get people to DESIRE this ideal, which would have sustainability and cost as added and also desireable byproducts.

not to apologise for it ::)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 06:27:03 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2014, 01:32:34 PM »
Jeff...

Exactly!  It is "perfect" for the playing of golf.  It should be labeled as such.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Peter Pallotta

Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2014, 01:40:00 PM »
Jeff - I must not have made myself clear. I agree with everything you've written. My point was simply that, since I believe MD understands all that as well as you and me, the fact that he didn't characterize the conditions as ideal means that he didn't want to characterize them as such. Why he didn't want to is another question....

Peter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2014, 04:10:56 PM »
I have a good friend who has been preaching sustainability for about twenty years ... since before the term really got legs.  He has had very little success with it, outside the corporate world where it has become a buzzword that big companies must adhere to.  For the masses, the word seems to be a turn-off.

I think it is the same lesson that I got from Julian Robertson years ago.  There was a tee I was thinking of building on the 3rd hole at Cape Kidnappers, that would have required a fairly expensive bridge to access.  I mentioned it to him, but said I had decided against it on the basis of cost / benefit, and he bristled at that.  He said that the whole place was a $50 million project and if that bridge would make it significantly better, then I should not worry about the cost, I should only let him worry about it.  I responded that I didn't think it would make the course significantly better, and he said okay then, don't bring it up at all.

For years before that I had always thought my leaning in the direction of minimalism [and sustainability] was appealing to clients, but I suddenly realized that talking about it in terms of costs was a total turn-off.  Clients like Mike Keiser or Julian Robertson are focused on building "the best" possible project, and they don't want to admit that cost has anything to do with it -- even if they do appreciate cost savings at the end.  They want you to make the best recommendation you can for the project.

Sustainability is the same.  It is the best recommendation you can make, but you have to be careful to say why these conditions are better, instead of making it sound like you are settling for something, or apologizing for it, or worse yet, being cheap about it.  So Jeff's original post is very much on point.  Mike Davis should leave the talking to Bill Coore and Bob Farren on this topic.  He has probably been worried about the potential for negative feedback, and is overreacting to it instead of making his own positive points.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2014, 09:12:15 PM »

At least the over watered greens are perfectly receptive.

Spot-on, but this isn't all that surprising, given that the Women's Open is next week.  They can take all the chances they want with the fairways, but getting the greens within a hair's breadth of death is not on this week's set-up guide.

Terry,

That's an excellent point, one that many haven't considered.

This isn't just another Open, it's a very unique Open in that the Women's Open will follow immediately.
That puts enormous pressure on the conditions for the Men's Open, especially when you consider what next week's forecast is calling for.


Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If those who supposedly "get it" but can't
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2014, 09:56:59 PM »
I noted after watching their operation at Sebonack last year, how they've got four full-time staff people monitoring the moisture level and speed and firmness of the greens, making sure they do not get out of hand.  They will keep them firm, but they will water them overnight if they have doubts.

I watched Tom watch/talk with them at Sebonack #stalker
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