Proposals for changes to Cruden holes 9, 10 and 15

[Frank Pont]

Got this in the mail from Cruden today:

https://www.mailbigfile.com/95e5049b4e95c586bd0aa431a448ee46/listFiles.php?repro_id=5414

I read with interest that the club is now finally going to make pretty much the exact changes to holes 9, 10 and 16 that I advised them to make several years ago in 2006-2008.

The changes in short are:

Hole 9. Move the fairway to the left edge of the cliff, take the gorse out to open the views and move the green to the position to where the current 10th tee is on the edge of the cliff.

Hole 10. Move the 10th tee to the ravine on the right of the current 9th green so that you get a spectacular diagonal tee shot. (see picture below taken in June 06 indicating the view of the new tee)



Hole 16. Lower the entrance into the green which has been raised through decades of sand blow, a phenomenon we discovered when we restored the entrance into green 14.

Al of the above points and ideas were discussed at length in previous Cruden posts here on GCA, good to see work is finally going to be done since I think these changes/repairs are improvements, just a bit disappointed I won't get a chance to execute the plans I originally proposed ....  

[Paul Gray]

Deepest sympathies Frank.

Looks like the committee have made the age old mistake of thinking they can do the work for less by doing it themselves or hiring a cheaper firm.

Yours Sincerely,

Hayling Member 

[Frank Pont]

Paul,

I know my rates aren't cheap but that cannot be the reason, since I was a member of Cruden when I was working for them, and I have a iron rule that I never charge clubs I am a member of for my services.....

[Paul Gray]

Then I'm genuinely confused.

Any idea why you haven't got the work? Or is it perhaps not something to discuss on a forum?

[Frank Pont]

Paul,

I'm with you.

After my Hayling dis-adventures (see http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49876.0.html ) I got some very kind help from a fellow GCA participant for whom this is his bread and butter and I have been including the following disclaimer with any design work I share with (potential) clients since:

All intellectual property rights subsisting in any designs, drawings, specifications, plans or other works we produce for you are and remain the property of Infinite Variety Golf Design.  You may use these materials only as expressly agreed by us.

Where we provide materials to you in support of a proposal to carry out work for you or as part of a tendering process, you may use and reproduce such materials only for the purpose of considering our proposal or tender and in the process of deciding whether to proceed with Infinite Variety Golf Design.  You may only disclose such materials to those people who reasonably need to see the materials for that purpose.  If you do not decide to enter into a contract for work with Infinite Variety Golf Design then you may not make further use of those materials [but may retain one copy for future reference]. You may not use such materials for the purpose of doing any work on the course, developing any ideas contained within the materials or provide those materials to any other architect, firm of architects or any other contractor.  Ideas and concepts contained in such materials are proprietary to Infinite Variety Golf Design and may not be disclosed to third parties not involved in the process of deciding whether to proceed with Infinite Variety Golf Design.

If you have entered or do enter into an agreement with Infinite Variety Golf Design for further work to be done or for those materials to be used in the construction, renovation or remodelling of your course then you have authority to use such materials as reasonably required for that work to be carried out as agreed between us.  Copies of that material may also be disclosed to contractors who reasonably need access to that material to enable them to perform work as part of the agreed project.

Unfortunately I did not use it when I was working with Cruden.....  but its really sad you have to use this legal stuff

[Greg Tallman]

Those that have played CB can certainly speak more definitively than I but from the renderings it would appear to me the 10th hole is the most improved by the changes. The proposed new green site at 9 is more dramatic and perhaps has the sex appeal but it seems a pretty mundane tee shot at 10 has turned into a great tee shot with a choice to be made.

[Sean_A]

I am not sure #10 really changes that much from a playing perspective.  There is still a straight cut burn across the fairway. If the burn could be altered to reflect the new angle of the tee shot (ie the burn runs toward the gap leading to the tee), it would make a difference.  The big improvement is the visuals of the tee shot.  I am not a fan of #9, so I see this as the big benefit if the new is any good.  Not sure I like the idea of altering the entrance to #16, but it may depend on subtle the work is.  I thought it was easily the best par 3 on the course.

Ciao

[Mark Pavy]

The changes on 9 and 10 look great. Damn shame they have to alter 16 as I think it's a great hole. Given that Cruden gets a lot of international trade, I suspect the first time player could get frustrated, not knowing or being able to see that you must land the ball way short of the green. I wonder how high you could reasonably build the existing 16 tee up to afford a better view of the required shot?

On a side note, the 16th at Cruden becomes the second hole on a 3D Blu-ray I produced about Great Golf Holes to go under the knife! The first was the 13th at Lawsonia Links, if any more of the holes on the title get altered, I'll seriously start developing a complex!

[Niall C]

Frank

Re the proposed changes, they certainly sound good in isolation, particularly the diagonal tee-shot on the 10th although I'd temper that by saying elevated tee shots are the hardest for judging distance (IMO) and that is exactly what you need to do when taking on a diagonal carry. My one query would be about moving the 9th hole to the left and what that does for safety in terms of the holes below and to the left. Is that something you considered in your report ?

The other thing about your post is the copyright idea. Ignoring the specifics of Cruden Bay where you were a member and doing the design for nothing, what are the club actually paying for when they get a design from you ? I can understand that you want to avoid a situation where when you are pitching for a job and giving them ideas that you want them to retain you and not go off and use your ideas without payment. However assuming you they decide not to retain you and you haven't given them detailed drawings, are you suggesting that you would look to prevent the club from undertaking work that was similar to what you proposed ? Looking at your ideas for Cruden Bay, I can't imagine you'd have been the only one to think of those ideas over the years so why would you be able to copyright that ? Detailed drawings yes, but ideas ?

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall,

Can't see safety problems with the holes to the left, unless you were to argue the newly placed green brought the 13th green in to range for a pulled shot. Or the green being slightly closer to existing 10th tees (if any of them are to stay).

I feel for Frank but it's a hard one with conceptual design. Even if he had issued his "intellectual property" add-on, how long can that reasonably hold for before it's rendered null and void? Whilst a lot of the skill is in the concept, it can remain as just throwing around ideas until the detail is actually executed. After all, with renovations like this one, the concept is your sell and the detail and build is where the time is... and also where a lot can vary...

Incidentally, I remember Frank's concept for Hayling which was a great thread to follow... What was actually done there in the end?

[Frank Pont]

Guys, you are completely right, of course the legal text wont help in all cases but it will make some people think twice to steal stuff blatantly.

What has not been mentioned before is that this report is from the same archie firm that worked at Cruden Bay before me, and in their time put new tees in for the 9th hole but did not alter the hole at all as is indicated now in their report. Nor did they ever recommend to move the 9 th green or the 10 th tees to right at that time. Same with lowering the 16th green entrance.

Then I start working with the club, do some things such as redo the green entrance at 14 and the new par 3 hole, and then also suggest to move the fairway of 9 to the left edge, move the green of 9 to the location of the 10 th tees and move the 10th tees to the right into the valley to create a diagonal tee shot. I take the greens chairman to the new spot, they love it. They clear the left gorse on 9 but nothing gets done further because the club was losing 60 k a year in at that time due to the crisis.

Fast forward to 2014 and I get a report made by the same archie firm that worked at Cruden before me, al of a sudden now having pretty much the same ideas I gave the club in 2008 on holes 9 and 10 (plus including the lowering of the entrance of green 16). Of course they could have had a bright new insight which they did not have when they last worked on the exact same holes, leading to pretty much the same plan I had proposed earlier. Or maybe the club told them about this great idea.... who knows.

In any case in my view conceptual ideas do have huge value, that's for instance why Doaks routings are so sought after. And those who can create the best conceptual ideas will always do well in the end, even if some of their ideas get nicked once in a while.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Guys, you are completely right, of course the legal text wont help in all cases but it will make some people think twice to steal stuff blatantly.

What has not been mentioned before is that this report is from the same archie firm that worked at Cruden Bay before me, and in their time put new tees in for the 9th hole but did not alter the hole at all as is indicated now in their report. Nor did they ever recommend to move the 9 th green or the 10 th tees to right at that time. Same with lowering the 16th green entrance.

Then I start working with the club, do some things such as redo the green entrance at 14 and the new par 3 hole, and then also suggest to move the fairway of 9 to the left edge, move the green of 9 to the location of the 10 th tees and move the 10th tees to the right into the valley to create a diagonal tee shot. I take the greens chairman to the new spot, they love it. They clear the left gorse on 9 but nothing gets done further because the club was losing 60 k a year in at that time due to the crisis.

Fast forward to 2014 and I get a report made by the same archie firm that worked at Cruden before me, al of a sudden now having pretty much the same ideas I gave the club in 2008 on holes 9 and 10 (plus including the lowering of the entrance of green 16). Of course they could have had a bright new insight which they did not have when they last worked on the exact same holes, leading to pretty much the same plan I had proposed earlier. Or maybe the club told them about this great idea.... who knows.

In any case in my view conceptual ideas do have huge value, that's for instance why Doaks routings are so sought after. And those who can create the best conceptual ideas will always do well in the end, even if some of their ideas get nicked once in a while.

Frank - Couldn't agree more about Conceptual ideas having huge value.... As you well know, in most fields of technical design, the initial conceptual phase is where the visionaries operate and the detail phase is where the worker bees come in (this changes depending on the level of "art" that is involved in each particular field). That's why (aside from cash flow), many GCA's have payment terms which front load the money e.g. 30% on preparation of master plan and report... To protect their core skill - the ideas.

Yet, many (including you and I) have often done an element of that work just to try and win the commission in the first place... Tricky...

[Thomas Dai]

Having the 9th run nearer the cliff edge would be nice and the green re-positioned on the rim where the 10th tee now is would certainly be spectacular.

I'm not entirely convinced by a revised 10th tee to the right though. My recollection is that a great deal of water runs down that ravine and that the right hand side of the 10th fairway gets extremely wet. Fixable for sure, but might cost a few ££££.

The 16th is fine like it is IMO. Part of the charm/quirk of CBGC. Fowlers 'Coffins' and all that.

Anyone ever played 15th tee to 16th green (moving the ball off 15th green naturally)? I have, makes an interesting hole.

atb

[Michael Tamburrini]

Having the 9th run nearer the cliff edge would be nice and the green re-positioned on the rim where the 10th tee now is would certainly be spectacular.

I'm not entirely convinced by a revised 10th tee to the right though. My recollection is that a great deal of water runs down that ravine and that the right hand side of the 10th fairway gets extremely wet. Fixable for sure, but might cost a few ££££.

The 16th is fine like it is IMO. Part of the charm/quirk of CBGC. Fowlers 'Coffins' and all that.

Anyone ever played 15th tee to 16th green (moving the ball off 15th green naturally)? I have, makes an interesting hole.

atb

I've often thought that would be an interesting short par 4 - it'd be drivable but there'd be a lot of risk involved.  I'm not that fond of 14 and 16.  I do like 15 although haven't played it from the newer forward tee on the dune which would let you see the green from the tee.  But I hate that the 14th green, on one of the most scenic parts of the course with the beach and the sea and the castle, is hidden away from view. 

16 has just always seemed a bit meh.  Lowering the run in so it's a bit more visible from the tee would help it a lot. 

[Bryan Icenhower]

Guys, you are completely right, of course the legal text wont help in all cases but it will make some people think twice to steal stuff blatantly.

What has not been mentioned before is that this report is from the same archie firm that worked at Cruden Bay before me, and in their time put new tees in for the 9th hole but did not alter the hole at all as is indicated now in their report. Nor did they ever recommend to move the 9 th green or the 10 th tees to right at that time. Same with lowering the 16th green entrance.

Then I start working with the club, do some things such as redo the green entrance at 14 and the new par 3 hole, and then also suggest to move the fairway of 9 to the left edge, move the green of 9 to the location of the 10 th tees and move the 10th tees to the right into the valley to create a diagonal tee shot. I take the greens chairman to the new spot, they love it. They clear the left gorse on 9 but nothing gets done further because the club was losing 60 k a year in at that time due to the crisis.

Fast forward to 2014 and I get a report made by the same archie firm that worked at Cruden before me, al of a sudden now having pretty much the same ideas I gave the club in 2008 on holes 9 and 10 (plus including the lowering of the entrance of green 16). Of course they could have had a bright new insight which they did not have when they last worked on the exact same holes, leading to pretty much the same plan I had proposed earlier. Or maybe the club told them about this great idea.... who knows.

In any case in my view conceptual ideas do have huge value, that's for instance why Doaks routings are so sought after. And those who can create the best conceptual ideas will always do well in the end, even if some of their ideas get nicked once in a while.

Frank - I feel for you. Happens in my line of work as well ... pitch an idea to a client, down the road you see another firm executing those ideas. Typically the other firm is one of the low cost providers in my industry.  I've decided long ago to let it go and that it must likely is for the best.  Anyone would do that to someone would most likely be a pain to work with and clearly doesn't have the same values, a trait in a client that I believe makes the project fulfilling for me. I have probably saved years of my life by not having to deal with people who will do nothing but aggravate during the time. And the client most likely gets what they paid for.

[Niall C]

Niall,

Can't see safety problems with the holes to the left, unless you were to argue the newly placed green brought the 13th green in to range for a pulled shot. Or the green being slightly closer to existing 10th tees (if any of them are to stay).

I feel for Frank but it's a hard one with conceptual design. Even if he had issued his "intellectual property" add-on, how long can that reasonably hold for before it's rendered null and void? Whilst a lot of the skill is in the concept, it can remain as just throwing around ideas until the detail is actually executed. After all, with renovations like this one, the concept is your sell and the detail and build is where the time is... and also where a lot can vary...

Incidentally, I remember Frank's concept for Hayling which was a great thread to follow... What was actually done there in the end?

Ally

I wasn't suggesting there was safety issues, I was wondering if there were and whether safety had been a consideration for Frank.

With regards the copyright issue, I can understand the problem of a newbie gca trying to get a job when they don't have a body of work to point to illustrate their worth and that selling the club on idea instead might be the only way forward. Basically a bit of show and tell. I sympaphise with that.

What I think would be a struggle would be someone pitching for a job by suggesting certain ideas for changes, where those changes aren't particularly radical but are well thought out, but without detailed drawings supporting those ideas, and then trying to inhibit the client from undertaking work of a similar nature without instructing that gca. Using detailed drawings supplied without payment ie. passing drawing to contractor to undertake work, would of course be actionable and easier to pursue.

In no way trying to belittle what Frank has done but many ideas aren't rocket science, it's how they are carried out that often makes the difference.

Niall 

[Frank Pont]

Frank

Re the proposed changes, they certainly sound good in isolation, particularly the diagonal tee-shot on the 10th although I'd temper that by saying elevated tee shots are the hardest for judging distance (IMO) and that is exactly what you need to do when taking on a diagonal carry. My one query would be about moving the 9th hole to the left and what that does for safety in terms of the holes below and to the left. Is that something you considered in your report ?

Niall

Niall,

some measurements:

- From the new 10th tees I show above to the burn is 270 meters (225m from current 10th tees). So few drives will be going into it
- The edge of the 13th tee is 50 m left behind the proposed new 9th green. That is safe
- The edge of the 14th fairway is 70 m left of the left fairway of the 9th, that is very very safe
 

[Frank Pont]

Having the 9th run nearer the cliff edge would be nice and the green re-positioned on the rim where the 10th tee now is would certainly be spectacular.

I'm not entirely convinced by a revised 10th tee to the right though. My recollection is that a great deal of water runs down that ravine and that the right hand side of the 10th fairway gets extremely wet. Fixable for sure, but might cost a few ££££.

The 16th is fine like it is IMO. Part of the charm/quirk of CBGC. Fowlers 'Coffins' and all that.

Anyone ever played 15th tee to 16th green (moving the ball off 15th green naturally)? I have, makes an interesting hole.

atb

The reason the club did not take up the new 10th tee idea on the right was because they felt making a new path on the right of the green of 9 down to the 10th fairway would be prohibitively expensive. I am not sure what new insights are available to the club that the costs of this new path would be lower now....

You are right that the current green of hole 16 is fine, and should not be changed. The only problem is that over the years there has been an accumulation of 1-1.5 meter of sand blow in the approach area, similar to what was there at the entrance of hole 14 when we restored that. The way to remedy that is to excavate the blown up sand until you hit the old top soil that will be somewhere under there. That is why the idea proposed in this new report to do all the works based on GPS does not make sense, other than that it allows the architect to only sparingly be on site.....

[Frank Pont]

Frank - Couldn't agree more about Conceptual ideas having huge value.... As you well know, in most fields of technical design, the initial conceptual phase is where the visionaries operate and the detail phase is where the worker bees come in (this changes depending on the level of "art" that is involved in each particular field). That's why (aside from cash flow), many GCA's have payment terms which front load the money e.g. 30% on preparation of master plan and report... To protect their core skill - the ideas.

Yet, many (including you and I) have often done an element of that work just to try and win the commission in the first place... Tricky...

Ally,

in the end smart and creative ideas will always carry the day. I am comfortable sharing my ideas and insights with clients because that is what differentiates me from the other competitors.

That is why in the last 5 direct encounters with the other archie firm the counter is 4-1 in my advantage (Tandridge, Copt Heath, Blackwell, Camberley Heath won vs Hayling lost).

And if you get screwed you just show it to the world and let everybody make their own judgements.......

[Frank Pont]

The one thing in the new proposals that actually is worse than the current situation is that the walk of green 8 to the new tees of 9 has become even longer and more burdensome than the current walk already is.

That is why I proposed an alternative (in 2006!) to make 9 as a par 5 playing from a tee behind the current 8 hole through the valley where the path runs up, along the left edge of the cliff to the new green.



PS. The blue lines were a proposal to extend the Olaf course to 18 holes; curious when we will see a new report on that one 

[Thomas Dai]

I recall back in the early 1980's a temporary tee/raised mat was positioned on the 9th hole way back on the other side of the gully as an experiment, thus making the hole par-5 length. It was quickly abandoned - topped shots were raining down on to the 8th green. I believe the mid-80's flood torrent that considerably damaged the olde 8th fairway may also have put paid to the idea. With modern generation equipment such a change now may be more viable, as Frank says, it's a long walk though, especially after trekking up Cardiac Hill from the 8th green.

As to making the St Olaf 18-holes wow, yes please. It's fabulous already and nine more holes in the big dunes next the seashore and akin in style to the original St-O holes would be fantastic. I see from the plan that the existing St-O 7th will disappear. That's a shame, it's a real character/quirk hole. As to the other holes, no mucking around now with the existing 6th and 8th holes as they are simply fantastic, the 6th over the ridge to a great benched green site and the 8th back into the prevailing wind to a raised green not dissimilar to the famous Foxy 14th at RDGC. The 'new' par-3 between 6-8 takes an interesting line though and the long hole parallel to the par-5 6th on the Championship looks very interesting. Curious about the final routing however, as there are only 16 'blue' holes on the plan (first draft?).

atb

[Niall C]

Franks

Thanks for the response on the safety issues

With regards the idea of putting back the 9th tee, is that not roughly where the tee was pre-Simpson ? I'm basing that on the old plans of the course which can be seen on another thread somewhere.

Re 16th - did you ever consider relocating the tee to the dunes to the right of the 15th green ? I always thought that would be a cool angle of apporach, particularly if you could reinstate the monumental bunker front right of the green.

Niall

[Jud_T]

Frank,

I think the legal disclaimer is a very good idea. My parents, both building architects, are bumping up against this type of thing constantly. 

[Frank Pont]

As to making the St Olaf 18-holes wow, yes please. It's fabulous already and nine more holes in the big dunes next the seashore and akin in style to the original St-O holes would be fantastic. I see from the plan that the existing St-O 7th will disappear. That's a shame, it's a real character/quirk hole. As to the other holes, no mucking around now with the existing 6th and 8th holes as they are simply fantastic, the 6th over the ridge to a great benched green site and the 8th back into the prevailing wind to a raised green not dissimilar to the famous Foxy 14th at RDGC. The 'new' par-3 between 6-8 takes an interesting line though and the long hole parallel to the par-5 6th on the Championship looks very interesting. Curious about the final routing however, as there are only 16 'blue' holes on the plan (first draft?).

atb

Thomas,

you are very right, the final St Olaf 18 hole routing that I came up with was a later version shown below, the focus of the picture shown above was the Main course. I agree that the St Olaf course if expanded like proposed would transfer through some amazing terrain and would allow for some world class holes. Again when I raised the issue with the club in 2006 there was no money to even contemplate the idea.  Maybe now with the economy picking up again it could get on the agenda?



Here is a panorama picture showing the land over which many of the new St Olaf holes would run as seen from the tee of the new 9th hole of the Olaf course



Click the following link to get the full resolution picture

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10772736/GolfClubAtlas/Cruden%20Olaf%20course.jpg

[Thomas Dai]

Frank,

That's a great panorama photo. Well posted.

Should the St-O be expanded and taken into this terrain it would be just fabulous. Many a time while playing the 5th-6th-7th on the Championship course I would glance across to the left and wonder what could be done within those unused dunes. As to the plan, when I saw the your map I did wonder about using the two small practice grounds. The 'new' St-O par-5 16th over the dune ridge to the site of the current St-O 7th green would be a pretty neat hole. I have a suspicion that such an expanded St-O would get a lot of play.

If only.....

Do you happen to have any photos of the 6th, 7th and 8th on the St-O that you could post herein? Bit good theses holes/green complexes are.

atb