Hollywood Golf Club, Deal, NJ (Walter Travis) - A Photo Tour - Hole 18 Posted!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 9th green is one of the most interesting, unique greens in golf, and it's fun to play.
A very enjoyable challenge.

I must say that the bunkering looks fantastic.

I can't wait to visit

[Tom_Doak]

I hope at some point they are going to mow the grass on the restored mounds in front of #9 tee.

We were going to restore cross-bunkers in that location but the club would not go for it.  Yet, the long thick grass in Mark's next-to-last picture is ten times more penal than the bunkers would have been.

[GBoring]

Tom,

Did the club struggle with the Fescue that close to the lines of play.  We have had some push back from the membership with the long grass that near the fairways. 

[Ed Homsey]

This is a terrific thread.  Am enjoying the discussion and the wonderful pictures.  Great to see the transformation of HGC and a return to bunkering reminiscent of the Travis bunkers installed in 1917-18.

Checked the Travis Society HGC file to see if we have pictures of the old #17 green.  Have not found any that give a clear image of the green.  There are pictures of the 7th green that show the 17th in the background (the clearest is in the HGC history book), and there is a picture of the 17th in an old Stumpp&Walter Seeds ad, but its a poor copy.

Frank Barrett, head of the HGC green committee that brought Travis in, wrote a detailed description of the project following it's completion.  Checked what he had to say about the 18th green, i.e. "Everything about the arrangement of this hole both as far as the treatment of the hazards and the configuratiion of the green itself are concerned, favors the second shot being played from the right hand side of the fairway as the green itself slopes rather pronouncedly from left to right.  Then, again, if the hole is cut on the plateau in the center---the line or entrance to the plateau in front, running diagonally as it does, makes it almost imperative that the second shot should be played rather low with a touch of a pull so as to minimize the chances of being kicked off to the right." 

Don't know if that helps to understand the 18th green as it sits today, i.e. has it been altered, etc.

Ed
www.travissociety.com

 

[Blake Conant]

Thanks for the description, Ed.  The 18th green slopes left to right, but it's a long, subtle slope.  I don't know if you would describe it as pronounced.  The plateau Barrett mentions is gone. 

Is there anything written about the 8th green?  That one seemed out of place, as well.

[Lester George]

Really great looking.  Kudos to TD and company,  Very appealing to me!

Lester

[Ed Homsey]

Blake--Barrett had very little to say about the 8th hole.  Just this: "Hole lengthened slightly by placing tee to rear, and now in front of halfway house; hazards placed on left at 120 yards, another on right at 170 yards, compelling the tee shot to be straight; the class player has long iron to the green, while medium player is short of pit in front and pitch on for a five.  The pit in front of green has been changed."  Nothing specifically about the green.  The hole played at 360 and 390 yards.

Ed

[Tom_Doak]

Blake--Barrett had very little to say about the 8th hole.  Just this: "Hole lengthened slightly by placing tee to rear, and now in front of halfway house; hazards placed on left at 120 yards, another on right at 170 yards, compelling the tee shot to be straight; the class player has long iron to the green, while medium player is short of pit in front and pitch on for a five.  The pit in front of green has been changed."  Nothing specifically about the green.  The hole played at 360 and 390 yards.

Ed

Ed:

I think that's significant, because it says the bunker in front of the green was changed, but sort of implies that the green was not changed.

The 18th green sounds like it was more pronounced and someone must have come in later and softened it.

I do have a picture of the old 17th hole, taken on my first visit to the course in the 80's, but it won't show the green contours all that well.  From memory, it was quite something, one of the most striking greens on a course that has a bunch of them.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Did the club struggle with the Fescue that close to the lines of play.  We have had some push back from the membership with the long grass that near the fairways. 

Greg:

To be honest, this is the first that they (or I) have gotten to see it.  All the work was done over the fall and winter months after the grass went dormant.  I'm shocked at how thick the grass looks ... it must have been a wet spring.  But that is not atypical for these projects, they either get sod from a nursery that is over-fertilized, or they seed at a heavier rate than required because they're afraid the members will react to "dirt". 

It always takes some time to get the maintenance of native areas sorted out; Crystal Downs has it pretty much dialed in now after 20 years of trying 

[Ed Homsey]

The Travis Society's file on HGC contains no information about the work that Dick Wilson did.  The HGC history book reports that Wilson gave the course "a complete modernization" and that he "focused most of his attention on the bunkering, eliminating some, moving others to more strategic locations".  Wonder if the change to #18 was a result of his 'softening'?  Does anyone out there have more detailed information about Wilson's work at HGC?

[Joe Bausch]

I need to get out more. . .

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I need to get out more. . .

Give this man some access already!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom, Ed, et. al.,

As I mentioned, I'm pretty sure that Tom MacWood had posted some photos of the 7th and 17th green along with the archway leading to the 18th tee.

Someone skilled at retrieving old threads, prior to the revamping of the site, might be able to reproduce them.

Having played the old # 17 innumerable times, it was an incredibly unique green with the elephant buried near the back, but, because of the difficulty of the green, combined with the length of the hole, the hole was rarely cut toward the back of the green.

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

Did you ever play the course while the underpass to the 18th tee was still there?  I have seen pictures of it, but have no idea when it was removed.

I don't recall seeing a good picture of the 17th green, but your "elephant" description brought back a mental picture for me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Did you ever play the course while the underpass to the 18th tee was still there? 

Yes, I'm pretty sure I did.
 
I have seen pictures of it, but have no idea when it was removed.

I'm trying to recall when it was removed and why.
Without devoting serious thought and precision to the time frame, from a practical perspective, it would make sense that it would not survive the lengthening of # 18 and the shortening of # 17.
But, I think it was removed prior to that project.

I'll ask some old, long time members what they remember.

I'll try to find out the date it was removed.
It was a neat touch, like you were leaving one world and entering another.

I don't recall seeing a good picture of the 17th green, but your "elephant" description brought back a mental picture for me.

It made back hole locations very, very difficult.
It was a long hole and had that feature that one would think belongs on a much shorter hole.
It was a very pronounced contoured mound, but, green speeds were much slower, so it was manageable.  Not easy, but manageable.
Except on long putts, and given the length of the hole, few golfers were hole high, thus most had to putt over or around that mound..
I lobbied for it's duplication with some members involved in the project, along with the removal of the trees interfering with the playing corridors on # 3.   I lost out on both counts at that time.  It would be GREAT to see it restored, ala # 12 at GCGC.

I'm pretty sure that Tom MacWood had some good photos of # 17 that he posted on this site.

The aerial photo hanging in the clubhouse gives some insight to the greens configuration, but, ground level photos would be more helpful.

[Mark Saltzman]

If anyone has the inclination, there are great aerials of the course at historicaerials.com

They start from 1931, though the 1940 aerial is much clearer.  When you look at the 1953 aerial vs 1963 aerial you can really see the difference in bunkering between what was there and the Wilson work.  Much smaller scale and a tremendous amount of bunker removal, mostly of bunkers that intruded into the fairway lines.

1995 vs 2002 shows pre and post Rees.  His work looks mostly restorative, and you can see old vs new 17 as well.

[Frank Pont]

Beautiful work of TD and Brian Schneider!

[Mark Saltzman]

The 10th continues along the property line and is an excellent par-5 start to the back nine.  At just over 500 yards, many golfers will stand on the tee hoping to reach the green in two shots, though fairway bunkering in play both left and right from the tee is truly penal and I tee shot into the bunker will make hoping the green in three shots a challenge.  Most golfers will have little trouble clearing cross bunkering on their second shot, but it does hide the landing zone.




An awe-inspiring bunker protects the right side of the 11th green and golfers will do anything they can to avoid it.  Playing a tee shot near the fairway bunker on the left makes that challenge far easier, though the strategy of the hole is hurt by an overhanging tree limb or three.




Nicknamed 'Heinz 57,' the 12th at Hollywood is a 460 yard par-4 that once featured 57(!) bunkers.  I can't say for certain the exact number, but the recent bunker restoration has brought the hole much closer to its original appearance.  Longer hitters are forced to play a tee shot down the narrow portion of fairway down the right, though most non-tiger golfers will have the room to play a driver toward the cross-bunkering some 280 yards from the tee.




While the restored width in the right fairway has once again made it a viable option, it would seem to be the poorer choice.  Over the cross-bunkering the golfer is given some 50 yards of fairway and open green front to run an approach onto the putting surface, though a fall-off protects the front-right portion of the green and should impact play all the way back to the tee.  Any approach from the right must negotiate this drop-off.

[Mark Saltzman]

The 13th hole is a short, sharply doglegging par-4.  There have always been many ways to play the hole and the addition of a centreline principal's nose bunker and tree removal on the left have only served to make things more interesting.  While the golfer once was forced to hit a shot of more than 220 yards or risk being blocked out by trees, he now can hit a tee shot of almost any length and have a clear look at the green, as long as he doesn't mind playing an approach over deep bunkering.  Similarly, at one time, the tiger who could carry the fairway bunkering 240 yards from the tee had a massively wide fairway to play to.  Now,  the perfectly placed principle nose bunker complex sits in the centre of that landing zone and careful consideration to both line and distance must be given.




The 14th is a 440 yard par-4 often playing into an afternoon breeze off the ocean.  The tee shot is blind over a rise, and with a rare carry hazard sitting short of the green, the golfer knows he must hit a good one if he hopes to reach the green in regulation.  With photo credit to Ran Morrissett, look at these before and after photos of the 14th green and 15th green in the background to see the change in bunkering, and more importably, the removal of trees separating the holes.

[Ronald Montesano]

#brazilian

[Mike Sweeney]

12, 13 and 14 is my favorite stretch of holes at Hollywood. Thanks for posting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I hope at some point they are going to mow the grass on the restored mounds in front of #9 tee.

We were going to restore cross-bunkers in that location but the club would not go for it. 

Tom, what was the reason for their rejection of the cross bunker restoration ?


Yet, the long thick grass in Mark's next-to-last picture is ten times more penal than the bunkers would have been.

[Mark Saltzman]

I hope at some point they are going to mow the grass on the restored mounds in front of #9 tee.

We were going to restore cross-bunkers in that location but the club would not go for it. 

Tom, what was the reason for their rejection of the cross bunker restoration ?


Yet, the long thick grass in Mark's next-to-last picture is ten times more penal than the bunkers would have been.

Pat, from his answer I'm guessing Tom is saying they thought it would be too difficult/unfair to higher handicaps to have the short carry hazard. I have to agree with him, though, at current thickness the long grass is much more penal.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

How or where did I miss Tom's answer ?

As to # 14, in fairness, Rees made it a really great hole by extending the front left portion of the green.
It was already a good hole and Rees enhanced it.

The tree removal has greatly improved the views of the holes as has the revised bunkering.

[Mark Saltzman]

Interestingly, the 16th plays as a monstrous 480 yard par-4 from the championship tee, but a far more manageable 455 yard par-5 from the member's tee.  Subtle though it is, a tee shot that challenges the fairway bunkering on the left will be rewarded with a kicker that will shoot the ball forward to bring the green well within reach in two.  While the green may be reachable from the right, from that side it sits at an awkward angle and second shots from the rough will struggle to carry a bunker that juts into the fairway 80 yards short of the green.




The 17th hole is often brought up in discussions of Hollywood Golf Club because it was significantly changed by Rees Jones so that he could lengthen the 18th hole into a championship quality finisher.  In doing so, Jones destroyed the Travis green and shortened the hole somewhat.  The 17th green as it sits today is notably different than the greens on the rest of the course, with a spine down its centre and four flat quadrants.

By adding that length, Jones got his championship closer.  The 18th is a brute of a par-4 at over 440 yards and playing into the prevailing afternoon wind.  As is evidenced by this picture, thought was given to the bunker top-lines to create a foreshortening effect.  Though it wasn't mentioned throughout this tour, rest assured this effect is used well throughout the round.