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Niall C

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Re: What Makes a Redan a "Redan"?
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2014, 08:05:15 AM »

Rich, as much as I prefer an uphill Redan, and have used the Crimean War fortress as part of my argument, I think you are going a step too far when you say downhill Redans are not Redans. The hole received it's name due to the wood-facing that held up the wall to the front-left bunker. That is the feature that prompted to retired army officer to say it reminded him of the redan at Sevastopol. I'm sure the uphill nature of the hole added to his recollection of the battle, but without the most unusual wall, would the hole have been so named?

The fact remains that the hole inspired Macdonald. He chose to make the front-left bunker, the angling of the green, and the ability to use the natural tilt of the terrain to help feed the ball to the putting surface,  as the features he felt were most critical to reproduce. He obviously felt that a downhill Redan was not a prerequisite. Do you really feel qualified to declare that his downhill holes are not Redans?

Bill

Back in the day it was not at all unusual for bunkers to be timber faced therefore I think it entirely possible that the old general/major/colonel or whoever could well have been talking about some other feature that inspired the comparison to Sevastopol. I'd also suggest you should be wary of the number of folk tales surrounding how various holes/features got their name. If you look hard enough you'll likely come up with a number of different versions.

Niall

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Makes a Redan a "Redan"?
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2014, 12:24:18 PM »
I'm by no means a military historian, but I thought the significance of the Redan fortification (as it relates to golf) was that a direct line attack was almost impossible, thus necessitating some sort of flanking maneuver. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Makes a Redan a "Redan"?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2014, 12:28:27 PM »
Niall,

If the North Berwick Golf Club believes Kerr's writing and posts it on their website, it is good enough for me to believe.


Famous Redan Hole

According to Rev. John Kerr in his 'Golf Book Of East Lothian' it was Major John Whyte-Melville who on seeing the sixth hole on the West Links for the first time said it reminded him of the formidable fortress or redan he had encountered at Sebastopol in the Crimean War. The connection with the Crimean continues at the fourth hole with the plantation of trees on the left and sand dunes on the right forming a narrow passage which the Victorian golfers name 'Shipka Pass'. As the present ground opens Shipka House comes into view beside the fifth fairway which was the property occupied in the summer by Herbert Asquith, Liberal Prime Minister (1908-1916). When the Crimean War broke out Major John Whyte-Melville went out as a volunteer in the Turkish Irregular Cavalry. Whyte-Melville was Captain of St Andrews Golf Club in 1816 and 1882, a member of the ancient order of Royal Scottish Archers and a distinguished Freemason, Grand Master of Scotland.


The "feature" that Whyte-Melville and CB Macdonald saw seems pretty dominant to me:




« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 12:35:44 PM by Bill Brightly »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Makes a Redan a "Redan"?
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2014, 01:45:14 PM »
Bill

Help me out, what looks very dominant, the sand pit or the timber face ? Are you still saying it was the timber face that gave the hole it's name ?

As for the NB web-site, either they got the quote wrong or Rev Kerr got father and son mixed up.
http://www.randa.org/Our-Heritage/The-Royal-and-Ancient-Golf-Club/Portraits.aspx

As I said be wary of what you read.

Niall

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