Russia: Golf's New Frontier?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

More tycoons are launching beautiful golf courses in Russia instead of buying sports teams. 

Now they need some players

http://online.wsj.com/articles/russia-golfs-new-frontier-wsj-money-june-2014-1402067393More tycoons are launching beautiful golf courses in Russia. Now they need some players

[Tom_Doak]

Link doesn't work for me ... they must have me flagged as a liberal.

I had the opportunity to build a course in Russia a few years ago, and passed.  It does not strike me as an appealing place to work at this moment in history.  And it's not like those jobs offer a lot of opportunity to enjoy the finished product.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Apparently, the WSJ removed the article. 

[Bryan Icenhower]

http://online.wsj.com/articles/russia-golfs-new-frontier-wsj-money-june-2014-1402067393

Most times WSJ articles are behind the pay wall a convenient work around is to go to Google News and type in the search bar on the news site the article you are looking for.  

[Bryan Icenhower]

Huh ... "The area around Moscow—a city that boasts one of the largest populations of billionaires—is now home to some nine 18-hole courses and at least three nine-hole courses. Many of them are world-class, private—and generally empty. The Russian capital, which has a population of more than 12 million, meanwhile, has only about 3,000 regular golfers, and just two publicly accessible championship pro courses."

And

"Experts at KPMG's golf advisory group estimate that the average 18-hole course in Europe, the Middle East and Africa costs between $2 million and $7.2 million to construct, but many of those built in Russia have far exceeded that average, with price tags on the order of $15 million to $20 million. Including all the add-ons—such as clubhouses, polo grounds, marinas, private ski slopes and course-side housing—the cost of some of Russia's highest-end clubs has well exceeded $50 million. And maintenance costs can climb as high as $1.5 million a year."

[Tom_Doak]

Bryan:

Thanks for engineering the link.

I read the whole article, which might as well be titled "What's wrong with golf in overseas markets." 

My favorite part was the paragraph that started "The course could easily be profitable" if the oligarch allowed more people to play it ... after the last paragraph had explained that the cost of the project so far was a net loss of $350 million.    Apparently the WSJ writer needs to take a course in economics, or remedial math.

[Tony Ristola]

An interesting aside.

I played a pro-am put on by Sven Tumba at Ullna GC. Our team finished second, and I think I did as well... as a result was supposed to join a group of pro's to put on an exhibition at his 9-hole golf course in Moscow; the first in the USSR.

I visited Helsinki in between, and told my Grandfather about my upcoming trip. Having lead troops in the Winter War, getting shot up and having to leave the country for a couple years after the war, he wasn't too pleased. I'd never seen him display anything close to anger before... he wasn't too happy.

As it turns out, Gorbachov was taken into house arrest the week before we were supposed to travel, and that was then end of not just that trip, but a whole lot more.

[Tom_Doak]

An interesting aside.

I played a pro-am put on by Sven Tumba at Ullna GC. Our team finished second, and I think I did as well... as a result was supposed to join a group of pro's to put on an exhibition at his 9-hole golf course in Moscow; the first in the USSR.

I visited Helsinki in between, and told my Grandfather about my upcoming trip. Having lead troops in the Winter War, getting shot up and having to leave the country for a couple years after the war, he wasn't too pleased. I'd never seen him display anything close to anger before... he wasn't too happy.

As it turns out, Gorbachov was taken into house arrest the week before we were supposed to travel, and that was then end of not just that trip, but a whole lot more.

Tony:

I had a similar experience when a friend approached me about a golf project on Okinawa.

I told him my father had visited Okinawa in 1945 -- as a Marine artillery officer -- and under the circumstances I just couldn't see working there.

[Gary Sato]

I read the whole article, which might as well be titled "What's wrong with golf in overseas markets." 

The problem with the overseas market is somewhere behind the lines of what Mr. Nicklaus said, "They are looking for sort of the American experience of a golf course as a center of a community".   He goes on to discuss Tseleevo which is a difficult 7,491 yard course.

Now Nicklaus is in discussions with a state controlled Russian bank about designing a string of public courses across Russia. Nyet...

[Mike_Young]

So much of international golf development is a huge balloon and has nothing to do with golf itself.  The KPMG or HSBC conferences are an interesting topic also.  Seems to be all corporate guys patting each other on the back and pushing signature architects to developers that have no idea what they are doing.  With so many of these courses people are just not playing plus most are so difficult for the beginner that they cannot learn the game, especially if you are mid thirties or older and taking it up for the first time.  It is not a sustainablr model but the golf equipment companies etc just want to make another sale.

[Tony Ristola]

So much of international golf development is a huge balloon and has nothing to do with golf itself.  The KPMG or HSBC conferences are an interesting topic also.  Seems to be all corporate guys patting each other on the back and pushing signature architects to developers that have no idea what they are doing.  With so many of these courses people are just not playing plus most are so difficult for the beginner that they cannot learn the game, especially if you are mid thirties or older and taking it up for the first time.  It is not a sustainablr model but the golf equipment companies etc just want to make another sale.

I think it was their first Golf Development Report where KPMG claimed cost and quality were related.

That's putting emphasis on what is measurable and ignoring what is meaningful. Does not do a lot to attract investors when they think they have to spend wads of cash to have a decent end product.

[Tony Ristola]

I read the whole article, which might as well be titled "What's wrong with golf in overseas markets." 

The problem with the overseas market is somewhere behind the lines of what Mr. Nicklaus said, "They are looking for sort of the American experience of a golf course as a center of a community".   He goes on to discuss Tseleevo which is a difficult 7,491 yard course.

Now Nicklaus is in discussions with a state controlled Russian bank about designing a string of public courses across Russia. Nyet...

Wasn't his company supposed to be the quality control gurus for Mexico about 15+ years ago?

[Joe_Tucholski]

They story does have a bit on affordable golf.  The small section about Sergei Kryuchkov and his $314,000 6 hole course was pretty interesting if you ask me.  Couldn't find anything on the course online...guessing they don't have an English website.

[Carl Johnson]

Where is Ivan Lipko when we need him?

[Ivan Lipko]

The only thing that I can say is that I am very upset with what the propaganda does to some minds.

As for golf in Russia it's still just the beginning but we're building more and more courses and game gets more and more popular even with the non-millionaires.

We have a very strong female player - Maria Balikoeva who play on the Ladies European Tour. Hopefully there will be more strong guys soon.

[Tony Ristola]

The only thing that I can say is that I am very upset with what the propaganda does to some minds.

As for golf in Russia it's still just the beginning but we're building more and more courses and game gets more and more popular even with the non-millionaires.

We have a very strong female player - Maria Balikoeva who play on the Ladies European Tour. Hopefully there will be more strong guys soon.

Hi Ivan,

What's your email address? You can catch mine by clicking on the email icon.

Cheers.

[Mike_Young]

The only thing that I can say is that I am very upset with what the propaganda does to some minds.

As for golf in Russia it's still just the beginning but we're building more and more courses and game gets more and more popular even with the non-millionaires.

We have a very strong female player - Maria Balikoeva who play on the Ladies European Tour. Hopefully there will be more strong guys soon.

Ivan,
Would you agree that the kind of golf needed in Russia is the kind we will not hear about?

[Jason Hines]

Привет Иван,

можете вы вывесить "websites" ваших любимейших курсов в России?  Я могу все еще прочитать немногую русское и это была бы хорошей.

Я огорченн, моя грамматика был ужасный.

Jason

Hi Ivan,

Would you mind posting the websites of your favorite courses in Russia?  Sorry, my grammar has become awful.

[Ivan Lipko]

Tony


ivan.lipko@gmail.com, feel free to drop me a message if you have any questions.

Mike_Young


Mike, I am sorry, I didn't quite understand your question. Could you, please, specify what you mean by the kind of golf needed in Russia is the kind we will not hear about?

Jason

There are not too many golf courses and for one reason or another I like them all.

Here are some:

mccgolf.com

http://forestgolf.ru/

http://www.tseleevo.ru/

http://www.pganationalrussia.com/

http://skolkovogolf.com/

http://www.pestovogolf.com/

[Ville Nurmi]

ivan,
Have you seen the new Gorki Club close to St Petersburg? What do you think of it?
All the best,
Ville

[Paul Gray]

I trust my black boyfriend and me would be made to feel welcome. 

Sorry, but you were all thinking it.

[Ivan Lipko]

Ville, not yet. I am in Moscow and I believe its' not yet finished 100%&

Paul, there are a bunch of gays and black people in Russia. They feel welcome and safe everywhere as long as they don't screw things up. Again, dont believe what they tell you on TV.

[Tom_Doak]

The only thing that I can say is that I am very upset with what the propaganda does to some minds.

Whose propaganda?  Yours or ours?

Did you think the article was unfair or misleading as to the state of the game there?

[Ivan Lipko]

Not just felt like some people on this board think Russia is a scary place withe bears on the streets and total violation of humans rights. I do honestly believe we have more rights here than in many other Western countries.
May be I saw something that wasn't even there, in which case I beg your pardon.

[Mike_Young]

[

Mike_Young


Mike, I am sorry, I didn't quite understand your question. Could you, please, specify what you mean by the kind of golf needed in Russia is the kind we will not hear about?

Ivan,
I am saying that courses that allow people to learn in small towns are usually not the types of courses that are heard of internationally....