Well Regarded Holes You Secretly Think Aren't All That Great.......

[Jeff_Brauer]

but are afraid to say so....

Had dinner with my son last night.  Discussion turned to golf, and started with the fact that we had an op to play Pebble Beach - one of his goals - that I had to turn down because it's graduation weekend.  The good news being, we both probably saved a few thousand $$.

In that conversation, he (based only on memories of seeing the last US Open there on TV) claimed the 17th is vastly over rated, when pros could only hold the green if they hit the fringe just over the bunker.

In general, I agreed.  First, its not really a water par 3, and the ocean is just a backdrop.  Second, a skinny green across the line of play isn't right for a long, long par 3, especially when there is almost no place to run the ball up for average resort players.  So, aesthetically  it could be better, and conceptually, its not great.  But, it is Pebble Beach and Tom Watson chipped in there, so its place in history is assured, along with all the good feelings that go with it.

Then, I see a "Best 18 Holes in Golf" spread in Golf.com this morning, with all the typical suspects, but found myself wondering about a few of them.

Anyone else have famous, well regarded holes that they never thought were as good as the consensus about them?

[Jim Nugent]

I'll offer one up, for which I instantly qualify for moron status.  #10 at Riviera.  Never played it, though I attended a few LA Opens in the 1980s and 1990s.  My sense that it's overrated is based on two pieces of information:

1.  Bob Huntley was a member there, for years as I understand it.  A very good player, he wrote there was only one way to play the hole.  Lay up.  Going for the green was a fool's errand.  I'm pretty sure this was pre-ProV1 era. 

2.  Now with high-tech adding 30 or so yards to the average pro drive, it's the opposite, at least for top golfers.  This year I recall the pro's saying it was foolish NOT to go for the green. 

So before the long ball there was only one smart way to play; and same now.  A hole that mostly dictates the smart play seems to me overrated. 

[SteveOgulukian]

Jeff,

I started a thread recently on overrated holes and also mentioned the 17th at Pebble.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58593.0.html

[Mike Hendren]

In my opinion, it's the 18th at Pebble Beach Golf Links, not the 17th.  

Regarding the 17th:  Since when must a green be accessible - I don't see "in regulation" in the rules of golf.  It's the ultimate infinity hole from the tee, but you know darned well what you're up against.  With the green bifurcated by the hump it's essentially two holes for the price of one - extremely elastic.  It's not penal - four's no big whoop.  One always has the option of playing short right for a pitch down the green - however, they should expand the fairway short right to be much larger and hittable.  Left side pin is a sucker play, but who among us doesn't willingly get suckered.  Bottom line, two of the greatest to ever play the game managed to make 2 there when it mattered most - it separates the chumps from the champs.  It makes my top 18.

On to the 18th.  Incredibly flat fairway.  Stupid trees in the fairway and green-side.  Dual penalty with fairway trees and first fairway bunker.  Saving bunker down the left for the second shot.  Encroaching cart path.  Surprisingly pedestrian housing.  Nice views and surprisingly good green, however.  I was let down big-time.

Bogey

[Thomas Dai]

Whisper it quietly but the ones that immediately come to mind that I'm not too keen on are the holes up and including the 10th at what some bloke in 1946 referred to as 'an old abandoned golf course' on the eastern coast of Scotland.

Probably be okay still with wooden shafts and heads. Not so sure with modern equipment, maintenance practices and £$ however.
atb

[Tom_Doak]

On to the 18th.  Incredibly flat fairway.  Stupid trees in the fairway and green-side.  Dual penalty with fairway trees and first fairway bunker.  Saving bunker down the left for the second shot.  Encroaching cart path.  Surprisingly pedestrian housing.  Nice views and surprisingly good green, however.  I was let down big-time.

Bogey

Yes, and it plays straight into the setting sun, too.  I still have it down as a great hole, but maybe not as great as advertised.

My entry is the 9th hole at Turnberry (Ailsa).  Great setting for a tee; that's all it's got.  The crowned fairway is ridiculous, the approach shot and green are nothing special, and there is no strategic interest at all.  Just rip a tee shot or die.  If Mr. Trump wants to do something different, I'll volunteer to do the work for free.

[Mike Schott]

but are afraid to say so....

Had dinner with my son last night.  Discussion turned to golf, and started with the fact that we had an op to play Pebble Beach - one of his goals - that I had to turn down because it's graduation weekend.  The good news being, we both probably saved a few thousand $$.

In that conversation, he (based only on memories of seeing the last US Open there on TV) claimed the 17th is vastly over rated, when pros could only hold the green if they hit the fringe just over the bunker.

In general, I agreed.  First, its not really a water par 3, and the ocean is just a backdrop.  Second, a skinny green across the line of play isn't right for a long, long par 3, especially when there is almost no place to run the ball up for average resort players.  So, aesthetically  it could be better, and conceptually, its not great.  But, it is Pebble Beach and Tom Watson chipped in there, so its place in history is assured, along with all the good feelings that go with it.

Then, I see a "Best 18 Holes in Golf" spread in Golf.com this morning, with all the typical suspects, but found myself wondering about a few of them.

Anyone else have famous, well regarded holes that they never thought were as good as the consensus about them?

17 isn't a long, long par 3 for most. Most PB visitors, (I hope) play from the White (6116 yds) or Gold (6445) tees where the yardages are respectively, 163 and 170. That's a 5 iron for me.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have told my had breakfast with Sam Snead but didn't realize it until later story, but it involves that hole at TB.  He said he was playing in a pro am with Don January (at first, I assumed he was the am partner) and noticed January had marked his ball off to the side, not replaced it, and called a one stroke penalty on himself as per the rules.  Sam said he figured on the next hole, he would purposely mark 1" from the hole, putt out, declare the penalty and walk off with par.  According to Jack Tuthill who showed up for that breakfast later, it lead to a rule change....

So yeah, I guess I call it over rated because the putting was "too easy."

TD makes an interesting point, and things like sun orientation would also figure into my calcs, as well.  At the same time, when your option would be to make that the first, even with water on the slice side (which could be handled with a wider fw) would it be better, especially considering that 18 would now be some version of 1 in reverse........

[Ian Mackenzie]

1. 17th at TPC Sawgrass - any green that is 330 degrees penal belongs in a carnival, not in a "5th Major" venue.

2. 17th at Pebble - covered here already. But, I think it would make a good 150 yard hole. At 208 from the tips to a back left pin...sure, tour pros can hit a high, soft shot. (Save it, Mucci, please.) But, I have played it from all tees and see no variation in the hole. When it mandates one way to play it, then to me it is less interesting. The green is too small, especially the back part.

3. 17th at the Old Course - Come on, you mean I have to drive over a hotel to TRY to hit a very narrow fairway angling away from me...at 455 yards? Love the road and wall, but this is a green that is VERY hard to hit and again mandates one way to play it and that is where I find flaw. I happen to relish a low, running draw, so I have hit this green. I bet this was a much better hole before the hotel (or indoor tennis courts) were built.

My theme is "choices and options".
When holes deny them, I find them tedious and uninspiring.

[Mike Hendren]

Ian, are you telling us you didn't think twice on the 17th tee at The Old Course?  And again on the approach?

Bogey

[Ian Andrew]

Using Jenkins Best 18:

No. 4: Baltusrol, par 3

I personally find the 4th at Baltusrol an awful design along with being out of context.

No. 16: Oakland Hills, par 4

I was tremendously underwhelmed by such a famous hole.

[BCowan]

I believe #17 at TOC was originally a Par 5. 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian, are you telling us you didn't think twice on the 17th tee at The Old Course?  And again on the approach?

Bogey

Michael, I actually only thought once. That's  my point.

1. Tee shot: take aim over roof, hit small cut.
2. Approach shot (from 170-205): hit low, hooded draw. Only way a mere mortal can access that green.

I may be overly opinionated about holes that take away shot options instead of presenting them.
That's the criteria I USE to subjectively judge "Well Regarded Holes You Secretly Think Aren't All That Great......."

Cheers.

[BCowan]

I'll offer one up, for which I instantly qualify for moron status.  #10 at Riviera.  Never played it, though I attended a few LA Opens in the 1980s and 1990s.  My sense that it's overrated is based on two pieces of information:

1.  Bob Huntley was a member there, for years as I understand it.  A very good player, he wrote there was only one way to play the hole.  Lay up.  Going for the green was a fool's errand.  I'm pretty sure this was pre-ProV1 era. 

2.  Now with high-tech adding 30 or so yards to the average pro drive, it's the opposite, at least for top golfers.  This year I recall the pro's saying it was foolish NOT to go for the green. 

So before the long ball there was only one smart way to play; and same now.  A hole that mostly dictates the smart play seems to me overrated. 

Was #10 at Riviera originally designed to be driven?

[Paul Gray]

I believe #17 at TOC was originally a Par 5. 

Indeed. And simply calling it a par 4 doesn't make it a bad hole. You can play for a five. Actually, I'm no RTJ fan but it does fit the 'tough par' criteria.

[Jim Hoak]

On 17 at Pebble, I wish people would hold back judgment till the left side of the green is redone.  The bunker has encroached on the green through play over the years, the company recognizes this, and it is being rectified.  So, let's lay-off till it is redone.
On 17 at TOC, while I am not the biggest fanatic about the course in general, I love that hole--for its design, its history and its variability.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Whisper it quietly but the ones that immediately come to mind that I'm not too keen on are the holes up and including the 10th at what some bloke in 1946 referred to as 'an old abandoned golf course' on the eastern coast of Scotland.

Probably be okay still with wooden shafts and heads. Not so sure with modern equipment, maintenance practices and £$ however.
atb

 

[Tony_Muldoon]

My entry is the 9th hole at Turnberry (Ailsa).  Great setting for a tee; that's all it's got.  The crowned fairway is ridiculous, the approach shot and green are nothing special, and there is no strategic interest at all.  Just rip a tee shot or die.  If Mr. Trump wants to do something different, I'll volunteer to do the work for free.

So what do you make of the 4th at Rye?  I missed the 9th on the Ailsa to the right and from a blind lie,  hit a great rescue to the back of the green. Best shot I made all day.  Have missed the Rye 4th fairway each of the 5 times I've played it, never had a chance to recover.

[Matthew Petersen]

I don't think the 18th at Pebble is one of the greatest holes in the world of golf (I would put at least 5 holes at Pebble ahead of it, for example), but I think sometimes those who want to knock it down go a bit too far in their criticism.

Because of the angle of the tee, it actually sets up as a pretty wide fairway, especially for the slicer. I like the fairway trees. The vast majority of amateurs playing the hole aren't going to be driving anywhere near them. Maybe they interfere with second shots? But there's plenty of fairway on either side.

For the better player, they really do narrow the fairway, if you have any desire to challenge the hole. Especially some of these really long players today could probably blast a drive down the right side and still be able to get home in two. The hole plays a bit longer from that side, but it's actually a better angle. The trees remove that possibility and make the long hitter who wants to try to get home in two have to challenge the left side.

[Steve Lapper]

Using Jenkins Best 18:

No. 4: Baltusrol, par 3

I personally find the 4th at Baltusrol an awful design along with being out of context.

No. 16: Oakland Hills, par 4

I was tremendously underwhelmed by such a famous hole.

I'll go one better......ALL 18 holes at Oakland Hills!!

[Phil McDade]

but are afraid to say so....

Had dinner with my son last night.  Discussion turned to golf, and started with the fact that we had an op to play Pebble Beach - one of his goals - that I had to turn down because it's graduation weekend.  The good news being, we both probably saved a few thousand $$.

In that conversation, he (based only on memories of seeing the last US Open there on TV) claimed the 17th is vastly over rated, when pros could only hold the green if they hit the fringe just over the bunker.

In general, I agreed.  First, its not really a water par 3, and the ocean is just a backdrop.  Second, a skinny green across the line of play isn't right for a long, long par 3, especially when there is almost no place to run the ball up for average resort players.  So, aesthetically  it could be better, and conceptually, its not great.  But, it is Pebble Beach and Tom Watson chipped in there, so its place in history is assured, along with all the good feelings that go with it.

Then, I see a "Best 18 Holes in Golf" spread in Golf.com this morning, with all the typical suspects, but found myself wondering about a few of them.

Anyone else have famous, well regarded holes that they never thought were as good as the consensus about them?

Jeff:

I didn't even have to click on your thread to know what hole you were going to discuss. The 17th at Pebble Beach has been the subject of numerous threads here on GCA, much of it wondering why anyone thinks it's any good. Similar to Yogi Berra's favorite restaurant, I'm beginning to wonder if PB's 17th is so severely criticized here on GCA that it might actually be under-rated.

The definitive thread on the subject, initiated by our fearless leader, with one of the great thread titles in GCA history:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44722.0.html

My own candidate -- the 1st at Machrihanish. Sure, you're playing over the Atlantic Ocean right out of the gate, and that is a thrill. But I think it's fair to judge holes within the context of what else is offered at the course, and the 1st there simply pales in comparison to much of the rest of the course; it's (by a decent margin) the worst par 4 on the front nine at Machrihanish.

[Tom_Doak]

My own candidate -- the 1st at Machrihanish. Sure, you're playing over the Atlantic Ocean right out of the gate, and that is a thrill. But I think it's fair to judge holes within the context of what else is offered at the course, and the 1st there simply pales in comparison to much of the rest of the course; it's (by a decent margin) the worst par 4 on the front nine at Machrihanish.

Well, then, we have seriously overrated it in The Confidential Guide ... it was the only unanimous choice for our Eclectic 18 of the best holes in Great Britain & Ireland.

I love threads like this one; they always provide some great material to throw back in someone's face a year or two down the road.

[Phil McDade]

My own candidate -- the 1st at Machrihanish. Sure, you're playing over the Atlantic Ocean right out of the gate, and that is a thrill. But I think it's fair to judge holes within the context of what else is offered at the course, and the 1st there simply pales in comparison to much of the rest of the course; it's (by a decent margin) the worst par 4 on the front nine at Machrihanish.

Well, then, we have seriously overrated it in The Confidential Guide ... it was the only unanimous choice for our Eclectic 18 of the best holes in Great Britain & Ireland.

I love threads like this one; they always provide some great material to throw back in someone's face a year or two down the road.

Tom:

When I first requested access to join the GCA discussion board (and it's frank and honest discussion of golf architecture), I wrote to Ran about my (alleged) credentials, and said among other opinions that I thought the 1st at Machrihanish was over-rated, relative to the rest of the front nine in particular. And he let me in!

The tee shot is a thrill -- no question. But the rest of the hole -- meh. The turf is pretty flat -- not the heaving waves of the rest of the front nine there, nor the wonderful micro-movement that makes the Old Course such a treat. The green sort of turns away from the ocean, rather than embracing it, and the green itself is one of the least interesting out there (especially compared to what immediately follows up the hill at #2). After the tee shot, it's a pretty dull hole.

[Brett Hochstein]

Using Jenkins Best 18:

No. 4: Baltusrol, par 3

I personally find the 4th at Baltusrol an awful design along with being out of context.

No. 16: Oakland Hills, par 4

I was tremendously underwhelmed by such a famous hole.

Ian,

I haven't seen Baltusrol, but those greens seem to be pretty similar.  I do agree with you about the 16th at OH, though I do think it has some merit for shorter hitters who have a decision to make in going for the green or hitting out to the fat landing area to the left.  Otherwise, it is kind of underwhelmingly simple and just eye candy, if you want to call water, white sand, and willows eye candy (I don't).  It, like the rest of the course, looked better in the old pictures in Ross's book with the more natural look and the big clubhouse looming in the distance. 

[Sean_A]

Ya gotta stick to Open venues on a thread like this.  I will offer the the finishing three holes at Carnoustie.  Tough fer sure, but terribly unbalanced and one dimensional to finish a round.

Ciao