Pace of Play Recent Study and Data

[Ian Mackenzie]

We do not play $1000 a putt. We put at risk $1000 a round. That is very common on a per course basis in the US.


Funny thing, the guys who rush and forget the rules during their rake and run aerobic adventures always happen to take six hours in the member guest and run away with the money.

Really? $1000 is "very common"? Maybe in Las Vegas or at Beverly, but NOT in 95% of courses I have played. Your money and I am not judging that, but guys who play for those stakes, and presumably can afford it, tend to grind like junkyard dogs. Good to hear that you have faster groups through - especially while playing in...gulp...a 6-some. What a goat rodeo...;-)

My experience has been that guys who play for those big stakes tend to have "massaged" indexes. Happy to play for some money from time to time, but unless I know you, I aint giving you strokes. Some  12 HDCP-er will drop a 77 on you while shouting that it's the best he's played in years. Yeah, right. SMD is all I have to say to that. ...;-)

$1,00 games, 6-somes, carts, complaining about faster players....OK..."Ain't that America..."

[John Kavanaugh]

Ian,

It ain't easy finding six or eight guys who you trust. There are no fake indexes and we all know that every score is posted. If you like to gamble and can find a group of guys who have no hard feelings win or lose you have won half the battle. It takes work and patience to keep the group together. I'm not even sure it is important to like each other.

The only reason I played six yesterday was because it was not my home club and a couple of guys who I knew personally but had not played golf with wanted a chance to play with me. It's what I do.

[Marc Huther]

Great research! Thank you

[Steve Lang]

  Looking at that data, i can't believe anyone would bother plotting lines with such low R-squared values through the cloud of data to draw any inferences. 

I can attest that Arcadia Bluffs was the slowest damn round of golf i have played in quite a while... never again thank you.

Hadn't seen it for a while but we played a course that had clocks set around the course that you check against your original tee time.  Very easy to see how you're doing time wise with that approach.

[Carl Nichols]

Carl,

I have never measured a round on the basis of time. We play too slow for the twosomes behind us but not so slow to have been warned by management. We never hold up a foresome.

I never play when I have somewhere to be. I am however expected home within an hour of total darkness.

Not looking for something precise.  Just wondering whether you think you usually play in 3:45, 4:15, or 4:45 (or whatever).

Carl,

This is the last time because I despise the culture of how long.

We played a sixsome today, six golfers hdcp 2-11, in carts 100% by the rules putting everything out. One guy lost in four figures. It's a very serious game. We took 3:52. It was very windy with off and on rain so we didn't let have to let anyone through.

Thanks John.  Was just trying to put your other statements into perspective--complaints about people behind you are much different when you're playing in 4:45. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Carl,

One reason I don't keep time is because it is never fast enough.  It was last year that I watched a twosome behind us skip the 13th green so they could bumrush us on the 14th tee.  They proudly said that we were the 7th group they had gone through that day.  Despite me forgiving him for spamming every member about his products, our emails are on the private side of the course website, I have not visited his store since despite me loving his products.  A classic cut your nose off to win the race.

Once the culture of how long invades your club you can forget about a relaxing day of gambling and drinking while playing by the rules.  All the shit I loved about the game is out the window.

[Carl Nichols]

Carl,

One reason I don't keep time is because it is never fast enough.  It was last year that I watched a twosome behind us skip the 13th green so they could bumrush us on the 14th tee.  They proudly said that we were the 7th group they had gone through that day.  Despite me forgiving him for spamming every member about his products, our emails are on the private side of the course website, I have not visited his store since despite me loving his products.  A classic cut your nose off to win the race.

Once the culture of how long invades your club you can forget about a relaxing day of gambling and drinking while playing by the rules.  All the shit I loved about the game is out the window.

John-
That's too bad; we don't have that problem atll, mostly because it's pretty well established what the expectations are--in part because we have rules, in part because they are enforced formally, and in part because there's informal shaming that goes on for people who act well outside the rules and expectations. 

[jeffwarne]

Carl,

One reason I don't keep time is because it is never fast enough.  It was last year that I watched a twosome behind us skip the 13th green so they could bumrush us on the 14th tee.  They proudly said that we were the 7th group they had gone through that day.  Despite me forgiving him for spamming every member about his products, our emails are on the private side of the course website, I have not visited his store since despite me loving his products.  A classic cut your nose off to win the race.

Once the culture of how long invades your club you can forget about a relaxing day of gambling and drinking while playing by the rules.  All the shit I loved about the game is out the window.

John-
That's too bad; we don't have that problem atll, mostly because it's pretty well established what the expectations are--in part because we have rules, in part because they are enforced formally, and in part because there's informal shaming that goes on for people who act well outside the rules and expectations. 

Played behind the nightmare that is the four bag cart yesterday
a method of play that combines the slowest parts of walking(the walking part) and riding (the gathering at the cart to get clubs before dispersing to their ball)
Like having a bad caddy loop for 4 players.
Who possibly thought this was a good idea?

[BCowan]

Carl,

One reason I don't keep time is because it is never fast enough.  It was last year that I watched a twosome behind us skip the 13th green so they could bumrush us on the 14th tee.  They proudly said that we were the 7th group they had gone through that day.  Despite me forgiving him for spamming every member about his products, our emails are on the private side of the course website, I have not visited his store since despite me loving his products.  A classic cut your nose off to win the race.

Once the culture of how long invades your club you can forget about a relaxing day of gambling and drinking while playing by the rules.  All the shit I loved about the game is out the window.

Jkava,

   I thought you pay all this big money at your clubs to keep the riff raff off the course?  Two somes have no standing in US Golf, at least old school US Golf.  What was your pro doing letting two somes off during prime time?  I've never seen one of these rake and runners you speak of  

[John Kavanaugh]

Ben,

At my club people have the right to play however they choose. I let them play through because I want to, not because I have to.

[BCowan]

Ben,

At my club people have the right to play however they choose. I let them play through because I want to, not because I have to.

Jkava,

  I'm glad you are such a compassionate person.  I just hope they can play without speed limits.   

[Paul Gray]

Carl,

I have never measured a round on the basis of time. We play too slow for the twosomes behind us but not so slow to have been warned by management. We never hold up a foresome.

I never play when I have somewhere to be. I am however expected home within an hour of total darkness.

The rules of golf require that you call them through. Trying playing to them.

[John Kavanaugh]

Perfect day today. Waited every hole on the group in front of us. It was so relaxing to only worry about our games and let them enjoy theirs.

[John Kavanaugh]

I know how upset it must make the purveyors of the culture if how long that I didn't go through the group in front of me. We first talked about it on the third hole but let it go. We could have skipped the half way house at the turn and crowded them on the tenth tee. We hung back and let them have a nice day. They were doing the best they could. It was comical at times watching them rush, give up on lost balls and pick up 5 foot putts. Sadly the rake and runners four holes back were dying at the thought of a slow pace. What a great day. Poor us, we only had an hour and a half for lunch rather than two. As it is, it's still light out hours after and Ray Donovan isn't on for an hour. A perfect day being forced to spend an extra 30 minutes on the golf course.

[DMoriarty]

It was comical at times watching them rush, give up on lost balls and pick up 5 foot putts.

Yeah . . . sounds like they were having a great time. 

[John Kavanaugh]

It was a new member and three guests. I'm proud of my friends and the groups behind us that we allowed them to have a great day even if they wouldn't know a great day if it spit in their face.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Perfect day today. Waited every hole on the group in front of us. It was so relaxing to only worry about our games and let them enjoy theirs.

\\

Feel very fortunate that you have all the time in the world to be able to enjoy the luxury that you describe. No kids or family obligations, no job to get to after golf, no other responsibilities or concerns. Your views on pace are seen through very myopic, yet fortunate, lenses.

The retail golfer, the young member, the "player" who really wants to play more yet cant stand the 4+ hours needed to complete a "task" that really should take only 3....

Public access courses NEED play to move faster so they can attract more golfers, allow more players and remove a very real obstacle that sits in front of the "lost millenials" described here in another thread.

Slow play is a huge concern to the health of our game. Maybe not at financially stable private clubs like yours, but if you want to attract new, young members with kids who play soccer, hockey and baseball in the am - and you want your caddy program to be viable with plenty of loops for the "honor caddies" - then make way please, John, I'm playing through....;-)

Cheers,
Ian

[John Kavanaugh]

Ian,

The group in front of us had a 9am tee time on a Sunday morning.  The course opened for play at 7:30.  If someone was in a hurry they simply could have gotten to the course sooner.

I will never understand the benefit of me being rude to a fellow member when it can simply be avoided by either getting up earlier, skipping a few holes to be played later, or not playing at all.  If I would have forced myself through the group does anyone believe that they would have let three more groups through?  If on any day of the week you would think Sunday mornings would give way to patience.

note:  Growing up in the God fearing Midwest I have had many Protestant friends get pissed that I could attend Mass on Saturday nights and wear shorts none the less.  I love Sunday morning golf.  Nothing like finishing up in time to see the Holy Rollers having brunch with their families.  Poor bastards.

[Paul Gray]

If they were anything like my Dad, a man who picks a club up maybe 4 times a year and NEVER breaks 100, they would have had a much better day if you had just played through. But then maybe not.

I just hope you moved aside for any group that happened to catch you. It would be very poor form to not call them through simply because you were waiting. After all, you had chosen to wait, they hadn't. And you never know, they might have actually lived in the real world and had responsibilities beyond the golf course. Sadly, we can't all live our lives as the eternal man-child.

[John Kavanaugh]

If they were anything like my Dad, a man who picks a club up maybe 4 times a year and NEVER breaks 100, they would have had a much better day if you had just played through. But then maybe not.

I just hope you moved aside for any group that happened to catch you. It would be very poor form to not call them through simply because you were waiting. After all, you had chosen to wait, they hadn't. And you never know, they might have actually lived in the real world and had responsibilities beyond the golf course. Sadly, we can't all live our lives as the eternal man-child.

I had never heard of stepping aside because a group is waiting on you as you wait on another group.  We were never offered to go through.  We simply chose not to employ the techniques that would have forced their hand.   

You are obviously trolling me. I'm going to put you back on the bench for the remainder of the year. See you in 2015.

[Joe Sponcia]

[/quote]


The 17 handicappers are my friends, it's the twosome with their hands on their hips standing on the first tee while we arrive to our first shots of the day that I can't stand.  Part of the problem is that those guys logged onto the internet one day and read that it should never take over 3 hours to play a round of golf.  They are pissed at just the sight of us and once hand hits hip the feeling is mutual.

I think the majority of golfers are angry before they even hit the parking lot.  Not because of fear on how they might play, or balls they may lose, or how much it will cost to buy that new driver.  They are angry because they may have to watch some rube in front of them enjoy a day of golf at a pace not to their liking.  The angry people are the problem.
[/quote]

John, 

This was worth my donation to the site this year!  The game is a check box to these folks.  They don't chat when paired together.  They rush out after their rounds, sit alone at member - members and in general, are just miserable. I would love to offer them a nice cigar, but I'm afraid they would bitch about how long they take to finish.  Got to run off to watch junior practice soccer.

[Paul Gray]

If they were anything like my Dad, a man who picks a club up maybe 4 times a year and NEVER breaks 100, they would have had a much better day if you had just played through. But then maybe not.

I just hope you moved aside for any group that happened to catch you. It would be very poor form to not call them through simply because you were waiting. After all, you had chosen to wait, they hadn't. And you never know, they might have actually lived in the real world and had responsibilities beyond the golf course. Sadly, we can't all live our lives as the eternal man-child.

I had never heard of stepping aside because a group is waiting on you as you wait on another group.  We were never offered to go through.  We simply chose not to employ the techniques that would have forced their hand.  

You are obviously trolling me. I'm going to put you back on the bench for the remainder of the year. See you in 2015.

But they were only waiting BECAUSE OF YOU. And you'll find the rules are very clear on this. If the following group are moving more quickly than you, even when you are waiting on the group in front, it is your honourable obligation to invite the following group through. It's all there in the little book, not that anyone should need to be told.

And believe me, there's a big difference between educating and trolling.

[Ian Mackenzie]

The 17 handicappers are my friends, it's the twosome with their hands on their hips standing on the first tee while we arrive to our first shots of the day that I can't stand.  Part of the problem is that those guys logged onto the internet one day and read that it should never take over 3 hours to play a round of golf.  They are pissed at just the sight of us and once hand hits hip the feeling is mutual.

I think the majority of golfers are angry before they even hit the parking lot.  Not because of fear on how they might play, or balls they may lose, or how much it will cost to buy that new driver.  They are angry because they may have to watch some rube in front of them enjoy a day of golf at a pace not to their liking.  The angry people are the problem.
[/quote]

John,  

This was worth my donation to the site this year!  The game is a check box to these folks.  They don't chat when paired together.  They rush out after their rounds, sit alone at member - members and in general, are just miserable. I would love to offer them a nice cigar, but I'm afraid they would bitch about how long they take to finish.  Got to run off to watch junior practice soccer.
[/quote]

Wow. There are two solutions here:

1. I will ask to play through you and the group in front of you very politely. I will then introduce myself to you while playing through and profusely thank you for your kindness and consideration.

or

2. I will finish my round, report you to the pro where you will subsequently receive a letter from the board reminding you of the policies that Paul so accurately summarizes.

If such behavior continues, you will be very politely notified when you will be allowed to play in the future. Usually that means with couples and families on Saturday and Sunday afternoons as mornings are reserved for those who respect the game, not just their own version of it.

It will be your choice and I will never tell you what to do.

Joe, your conclusions are just wrong. Some players want to play efficiently and that is in stark contract to what you say. I play in 3 hours with my regular 4-ball and we cover myriad topics while playing. We just play efficiently - meaning, we are prepared to hit our shots and putts while others are playing and our pre-shot routines are sub-30 seconds. That's how we play fast. I dont walk faster than you and John, i dont swing faster either. Now, I may take fewer strokes than both of you...;-)...but my partners dont.

Dont make me wait behind you because you're stalking your 8' bogie putt after all your partners have holed out. Dont make me wait because you choose to not arrive at your ball until youve watched all your friends hit first. I assure you during this dead time, you are alone with your thoughts and not deep in congenial conversation.

And, the only thing that remotely resembles what say at a member/member is that people nod over to your direction and whisper, "That guy refuses on principle to let anyone play through. Amazing that he can even find a partner anymore..."...;-)

Cheers,
Ian

[John Kavanaugh]

Someone please cite the rule that says that when I am waiting on the group in front of me on every hole I must let a group behind me through.  Or if not that rule the one that says I must make every attempt to go through a group in front of me.

Note:  My club just instituted a maximum time for 18 holes. It is 4:45.  Given that is club policy I don't see getting a letter for taking 4:15.   

[John Kavanaugh]

Bogey can verify this story. Bogey and I were standing on the par 3 16th tee waiting for a group to putt out on the green. Two young men drove up and I asked if they would like to play in with us. They stated they would rather play through.  When I agreed to their terms in exchange for a less than heterosexual favor they decided it would be best if they ended their day and drove home with their tail, and not mine, between their legs.