[Niall C]

Neil

There certainly is and I've seen a fair few of them ! Is this magazine a UK publication ?

Niall

[Jim_Kennedy]

Nice find Neil.

Niall,
The term is surrounded by a few paragraphs about the rules, and how some of them might need to be rethought due to conditions that weren't present at St. Andrews.

[Tom_Doak]

Niall:

Macdonald believed his idea of using classical concepts was a more formal interpretation of "architecture" than anything that had been done before.  I don't think he denied that Old Tom Morris and many others had created courses, and done significant work to build them ... but CBM compared his sort of architecture to borrowing classical Greek column forms, and the old Scots pros certainly didn't think of it in that way.

In reserving the term "golf course architecture" for his own style, Macdonald may well have realized he was dismissing other efforts as "lesser" through his vocabulary -- and I'm guessing he didn't have a problem in doing so.

P.S.  I know that Willie Park liked to call himself a "golf architect" but I have no idea when he started using the term.

Tom

I think you are making assumptions as to what the old pros thought, and probably so do I, which is an easy thing to do when notoriously there is very little by way of written evidence outside that of Park and perhaps Braid. The written dialogue on golf course architecture in the golden age was almost entirely between the amateur golfers/professional gca set of the likes of MacKenzie/Simpson/Colt/Ambrose and of course CBM. I think it's easy therefore to fall into the trap of assuming that the golfing pro's designs were entirely intuitive without any reference to classical golf holes. I think they did but there just isn't a written history explaining it. All conjecture on my part.

Niall:

I did not mean to suggest [and don't think I did suggest] that the Scots pros did not think about design in terms of other holes they had seen and played previously.  I'm sure they did.

I just meant that none of them were so self-important as to think they were inventing "golf course architecture" the same way the Greeks invented Architecture.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

Surely the Greeks copied the Egyptians just as the Egyptians copied the Assyrians, et cetera (or was it vice versa?).  From many of the late 19th century articles I have read about golf course architecture, CBM was late to the party (even though few writers in those days on this topic used the "A" word).  I think we should judge Macdonald by the quality of his works on the ground (great) rather than by the quality of his words on the page (not great).

Rich

[DMoriarty]

Tom

Surely the Greeks copied the Egyptians just as the Egyptians copied the Assyrians, et cetera (or was it vice versa?).  From many of the late 19th century articles I have read about golf course architecture, CBM was late to the party (even though few writers in those days on this topic used the "A" word).  I think we should judge Macdonald by the quality of his works on the ground (great) rather than by the quality of his words on the page (not great).

Rich

Rich I've seen you and others express this sentiment repeatedly, but I am not familiar with the is wealth of late nineteenth century literature on the finer points of golf course architecture.  I am aware of some articles, but they are mostly pretty basic stuff.  Perhaps you could enlighten us?  

[Rich Goodale]

David

What CBM wrote was even more very basic stuff, and he had 50 years of experience to build upon before he took paper to pen.  Spend some time in the archives of the 19th century (make sure you communicate with Melvyn Morrow) and get back to me when you can substantiate your unsubstantiated claims above.

All the best.

Rich

[DMoriarty]

You lost me, Rich.  I'm not the one here who is making yet unsubstantiated claims.   You, on the other hand, were telling us about the "many . . . late 19th century articles [you] have read about golf course architecture" and about how "CBM was late to the party."    I am not familiar with this treasure trove of articles, and am hoping you will share with us.

Thanks.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

I'll have to look for the article, but when one of those "Old Pros" was questioned about why he and his compatriots built such rudimentary courses when they first came to America, especially when they were familiar with more complex architecture, answered money,i.e., no one in America at the time wanted to spend what was needed to build quality.

[Niall C]

Tom

Surely the Greeks copied the Egyptians just as the Egyptians copied the Assyrians, et cetera (or was it vice versa?).  From many of the late 19th century articles I have read about golf course architecture, CBM was late to the party (even though few writers in those days on this topic used the "A" word).  I think we should judge Macdonald by the quality of his works on the ground (great) rather than by the quality of his words on the page (not great).

Rich

Rich

Fair point about  judging CBM by his design work however he also deserves to be judged  (favourably IMO) for his impact on the game in America in terms of his admin and management role as well as his writings. I just think that judging him by his own estimation as in this instance is possibly going to give you a misleading impression.

Niall

[Niall C]

Tom

Apologies if I misinterpreted and take your point that perhaps CBM had a "right good conceipt of himself" as they say round here.

Jim

I had look yesterday in the Mitchell which is my local reference library and they have Baileys from I think 1860 onwards. I had a look at the first half of the 1890's and yet to get to this article but will in due course. While it's good to get another source of golf writings for back then it would seem to be fairly slim pickings amongst all the articles on hunting etc. You never know though, another little nugget like this one my pop up.

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

You lost me, Rich.  I'm not the one here who is making yet unsubstantiated claims.   You, on the other hand, were telling us about the "many . . . late 19th century articles [you] have read about golf course architecture" and about how "CBM was late to the party."    I am not familiar with this treasure trove of articles, and am hoping you will share with us.

Thanks.  

Dave

You must have missed the part of my post that said, talk to Melvyn.

You can also look at John Sutherland's articles in the late 1890's.  And do you really think that he hired OTM in 1877 to not be a GCA?

Above it has been proven that CBM was NOT the first to use the term, so why are you continuing to whine on this thread?

[DMoriarty]

You've confused me again Rich.   I've never claimed CBM was the first golf course architect, and don't believe he was.  I am just trying to understand his words in context, rather than using him as straw man to make some silly point about overreaching, or something.   For example, or you to say he was "late to the game" is laughable, in my opinion.  

If the articles do what you claim they do surely it wouldn't be too much trouble for you come up with a few of them.  That way we can all see for ourselves rather than taking your word for it.  Thanks.  

[Rich Goodale]

You've confused me again Rich.   I've never claimed CBM was the first golf course architect, and don't believe he was.  I am just trying to understand his words in context, rather than using him as straw man to make some silly point about overreaching, or something.   For example, or you to say he was "late to the game" is laughable, in my opinion.  

If the articles do what you claim they do surely it wouldn't be too much trouble for you come up with a few of them.  That way we can all see for ourselves rather than taking your word for it.  Thanks.  

Meh?

[Neil Regan]

Two more early uses, courtesy of Google Books:

From Golf Illustrated, May, 1903
Both Willie Park and J.H. Taylor are referred to as architects, on page 96 and page 91

[Scott Macpherson]

Well done again Neil. Good digging ... and thanks for getting this thread back on topic.

The way your discovery in the Baily's publication states 'golf architect' makes me think that they did not coin the phase either. I have been looking at old articles from 1890 onwards with the hope of finding references to 'golf architecture' or 'golf architects', but have not yet found anything truly illuminating. I'll keep looking when time permits.

Scott

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