[Paul Gray]

Jeff,

Well maybe but I know damn well that you get my point.  

[Padraig Dooley]

I looked at this Ted Talk recently

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epstein_are_athletes_really_getting_faster_better_stronger

With regards to improvement in technique and conditioning, this may have happened in the average tour pro but the great players of the past also had great conditioning and technique, so I think improvement in distance is nearly wholly down to equipment both clubs and course conditioning.

[Patrick_Mucci]

This afternoon I played with a 40 year old who hits the ball rather solid, a 35 year old and my 15 year old son.

On the 6th hole, a 500 yard par 5, the 40 year old and my son hit very good drives.

The 40 year old was 210 and hit a rescue onto the elevated green, my son, at 200, hit a 4-iron to the back center of the elevated green.

At 15, neither me nor my golfing friends would ever dream that such play was possible.

[Mike Bowen]

As a golfer who does "smash" it, and with many friends who are 300+ off the tee, I don't know where the "only 1% of golfers hit the ball too far" comes from.  I play with gentleman who are north of 50 years old who play 450 yard par fours with mid iron approaches.

At the course I play and work at, which was built 23 years ago, I reach all three par fives with mid irons.  In another 20 years it will be short irons.  Most of the current greatest golf courses in the world right now are being played differently than anyone ever imagined.  Some might think this is great and exciting. 

If given the opportunity I would purchase and play Titleist Professional 90's as my regular ball, but guess what, I can't.

[Paul Gray]

Dear Mr Mucci,

I was wondering where you'd got to. You would have loved some of the recent exchanges on this thread. 

This whole 1%, 2% thing got me thinking that part of the resistance from otherwise knowledgeable folk might be that some of us are pressing fast forward and some aren't. I mean, if you're not thinking about the picture in 10 or 20 years time maybe theings don't look so bad. Until people actually see tour events played on either 10, 000 yard courses or 7500 yard courses reduced to 12 par 3s and 6 par 4s, the penny won't drop.

The example of your son is striking to me as I believe I'm a mere 22 years older than him. I'm sure he's a very good player and I wish him well but my mates and me weren't too bad either and, right down at sea level on the links, I fancy we were lucky to run the thing out to about 240 yards. Only 20 odds years ago and we thought Jon Daly was a freak for running the thing out to 300 yards.

[archie_struthers]

 


When we were young they had these high energy golf balls appropriately named Robin Hood. They went a zillion miles and were akin to playing stickball with a superball.   They were clearly illegal then . For those of you too young to remember the "superball" , they were a high energy super tightly wound rubber ball , kind of like the Titleit Pro V .

We didn't play stickball with them because you couldn't find a big enough field.  Hmnnnnnn

[Paul Gray]

Archie,

Exactly.

Golf balls have been regulated for longer than I remember. 'Roll back' is just an unfortunately incendiary term which simply means an extension of what is alrwady occuring.

Just let he ball fit the field of play. Simple really.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

I'm not talking about runout where the golfer carries it 210 and it runs out to 270, I'm talking about 15-18 year old kids carrying it 275+

When runout drives are hit they still encounter the features (bunkers, etc., etc) and quirks of the land.
When carry drives are hit they avoid what the architect and land intended.

[Mickey Boland]

If given the opportunity I would purchase and play Titleist Professional 90's as my regular ball, but guess what, I can't.

Yes but nothing is stopping you from playing a Wilson Duo or McGregor Tourney or Snake Eyes SDF or some other less-performing ball than a ProV.  Or are you already playing the lesser-performing ball?

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

I know. Exactly.

[BCowan]

What is wrong with a 500 yard par 4?  In the 1930's there were some 450 yard par 4's (with that equipment).  I don't see the equipment and ball going much farther.  Does anyone see courses going past 7500 yards for championship golf?  If someone would start a private invitational tourney with persimmons woods we could see how the ratings turn out.  Then pro's would have to actually hit the screws to get any distance.  Pro V1 is the greatest invention.  

[jeffwarne]

What is wrong with a 500 yard par 4?  In the 1930's there were some 450 yard par 4's (with that equipment).  I don't see the equipment and ball going much farther.  Does anyone see courses going past 7500 yards for championship golf?  If someone would start a private invitational tourney with persimmons woods we could see how the ratings turn out.  Then pro's would have to actually hit the screws to get any distance.  Pro V1 is the greatest invention.  

Nothing wrong with a 500 yard par with current technology-until you have to build 5 tees so the paying public will accept it.

Why is ProV1 the greatest invention?
there have been balls around that went that far for years, and balls that go farther could be made tomorrow

[Patrick_Mucci]

What is wrong with a 500 yard par 4?  

Ben,

I'll continue with your education on this subject.
Nothing is wrong with a 500 yard par 4 IF the features are located and juxtaposed in such a fashion that they'll integrate with the golfer.

What you and others are missing is that those features, created by Donald Ross in 1929, when the course opened at almost 6,700, is that the golfer avoids them like the Germans did the Maginot Line.

They're nothing more than vestigial features, irrelevant to the golfer who can just fly them without consequence.

In the 1930's there were some 450 yard par 4's (with that equipment).

In the 1930's irrigation wasn't a factor like it is today and balls could roll out, but, in rolling out, they interfaced with the features as intended by the architect.

I don't see the equipment and ball going much farther.  Does anyone see courses going past 7500 yards for championship golf?  

Yes, I do.

If someone would start a private invitational tourney with persimmons woods we could see how the ratings turn out.  
Then pro's would have to actually hit the screws to get any distance.  Pro V1 is the greatest invention.  

Not going to happen, the genie is out of the bottle, the horse out of the barn.
In fact, I see the genie riding the horse and laughing at the regulatory bodies, and, he's logoed up to the max.

[BCowan]

What is wrong with a 500 yard par 4?  In the 1930's there were some 450 yard par 4's (with that equipment).  I don't see the equipment and ball going much farther.  Does anyone see courses going past 7500 yards for championship golf?  If someone would start a private invitational tourney with persimmons woods we could see how the ratings turn out.  Then pro's would have to actually hit the screws to get any distance.  Pro V1 is the greatest invention.  

Nothing wrong with a 500 yard par with current technology-until you have to build 5 tees so the paying public will accept it.

Why is ProV1 the greatest invention?
there have been balls around that went that far for years, and balls that go farther could be made tomorrow

Who said anything about 5 tees, ur assuming. What do 1-3% of people play the tips if they are 7000+?   Pro V1 is very durable.  I don't know a ball that performs around the green and is long like the Pro V1.  Lets see it.  how would it perform with persimmons?  

[Thomas Dai]

I'll say another thing about 350 yd tee shots in general play - they don't half effect the pace of play. There you are in your nice weekend fourball, 3 average hitters and one 350 yd bomber and you're waiting all the damn time for the group in front, who are playing just fine and at a reasonable pace, to move on before Mr Bomber can even hit, and that's even if Mr Bomber waits to hit last from the tee, and dog-leg hole holes where the view is obstructed by trees on the corner, that can get dangerous.

As to the ProV1 being a great invention. I don't necessarily agree. The Titleist Professional would probably get my vote. It may not have gone so far or had so much 'drop-n-stop' as the advert said of the ProV1, but it didn't go so far and went sideways easier, which are both good IMO, and.....it didn't cut like the previous balata's did. It was progressive in terms of durability but not in terms of distance. The Maxlfi Revolution of the same era was also a very fine ball.

atb

[BCowan]

What is wrong with a 500 yard par 4?  

Ben,

I'll continue with you education on this subject.
Nothing is wrong with a 500 yard par 4 IF the features are located and juxtaposed in such a fashion that they'll integrate with the golfer.Assuming a golfer who is long is playing the tips, yes agree.

What you and others are missing is that those features, created by Donald Ross in 1929, when the course opened at almost 6,700, is that the golfer avoids them like the Germans did the Maginot Line.Yes, more penal bunkers in Ross's day, agree!

They're nothing more than vestigial features, irrelevant to the golfer who can just fly them without consequence.
Agreed, assuming a long player isn't playing up.
In the 1930's there were some 450 yard par 4's (with that equipment).

In the 1930's irrigation wasn't a factor like it is today and balls could roll out, but, in rolling out, they interfaced with the features as intended by the architect. Agreed, the older i get I miss the single irrigation lines.  I agree with what you are saying.

I don't see the equipment and ball going much farther.  Does anyone see courses going past 7500 yards for championship golf?  

Yes, I do.

If someone would start a private invitational tourney with persimmons woods we could see how the ratings turn out.  
Then pro's would have to actually hit the screws to get any distance.  Pro V1 is the greatest invention.  

Not going to happen, the genie is out of the bottle, the horse out of the barn.People watch MLB, and they use wood!  Throwback is popular, just needing revolutionaries with pockets to raise money and make it happen!  Kinda like the Masters tourney and building that course around the depression.  I'm sure people told them they were nuts.
In fact, I see the genie riding the horse and laughing at the regulatory bodies, and, he's logoed up to the max.
You sound like the gov't.  I heard some pro's whinnying about drug testing.  

[BCowan]

Thomas,

   I could agree with the professional, very good ball. 

[DMoriarty]

As a golfer who does "smash" it, and with many friends who are 300+ off the tee, I don't know where the "only 1% of golfers hit the ball too far" comes from.  I play with gentleman who are north of 50 years old who play 450 yard par fours with mid iron approaches.

At the course I play and work at, which was built 23 years ago, I reach all three par fives with mid irons.  In another 20 years it will be short irons.  Most of the current greatest golf courses in the world right now are being played differently than anyone ever imagined.  Some might think this is great and exciting. 

If given the opportunity I would purchase and play Titleist Professional 90's as my regular ball, but guess what, I can't.

Thanks for chiming in.   Whatever the exact percentage, I agree that a significant segment of the golfing community bombs it 300+ on a regular basis.  And there is an even larger percentage who regularly hit it 270 or 280.   It wasn't long ago that 270 or 280 was incredibly long.    To give an idea, in 1991 (the year Daly shocked golf with his huge drives in the Tour Championship) the median tour player only averaged 260 yards off the tee, and only 27 pros averaged 270 or above.    Now we talk about how only a few golfers are hitting it 350, as if only 300-350 is really long.   Absurd. 

I remember back around 2000 when the distance apologists here used to vehemently argue that, really, the long players couldn't hit the ball 300 yards, and that those numbers must be exaggerated or embellished or wind-aided or whatever.  They also argued that the distances wouldn't continue to increase. 

We are still having the exact same conversations, only now it is whether there are a significant number who can hit it 350+.

So far this year on tour there have been over 1000 drives of 343 yards or further.

[jeffwarne]

What is wrong with a 500 yard par 4?  In the 1930's there were some 450 yard par 4's (with that equipment).  I don't see the equipment and ball going much farther.  Does anyone see courses going past 7500 yards for championship golf?  If someone would start a private invitational tourney with persimmons woods we could see how the ratings turn out.  Then pro's would have to actually hit the screws to get any distance.  Pro V1 is the greatest invention.  

Nothing wrong with a 500 yard par with current technology-until you have to build 5 tees so the paying public will accept it.

Why is ProV1 the greatest invention?
there have been balls around that went that far for years, and balls that go farther could be made tomorrow

Who said anything about 5 tees, ur assuming. What do 1-3% of people play the tips if they are 7000+?   Pro V1 is very durable.  I don't know a ball that performs around the green and is long like the Pro V1.  Lets see it.  how would it perform with persimmons?  

So Ben,
You've got a 500 yard par.
As you said, only 1-3% will play the tips.
How many tees exactly do the 99% get, and where are they/is it located?

Where does the 10 hdcp senior who drives it 190 play?
The 22 handicap senior?
The 8 handicap 23 year old who hits it 300+?
the ladies?
the average 15 hdcp who thinks he hits it 260, but really hits it 230.

With a rolled back ball you can play 440, 390. and 310 and please all crowds

Design a 500 yard par 4 with 2-3 tees, sit in my office all day and see how that goes.

and for the record I hate 4-5 sets of tees

[BCowan]

4 is the right amount of tees imho.  4 people in a group. no more than 4 hours on the course.  yell 4 when you hit a bad shot!  

[Paul Gray]

Right, the tee issue.....

Way, way back in the late 80's and early 90's when I was just a kid I could play my home course, a 6,500 yard links, with grown men in their prime and octogenarians alike, all playing from the standard daily tees (the only tees permitted, outside of competition), the course could play anything from short as short on dry summer fairways and longer than long on a windy day in February and NEVER was it a problem for any of the participants.

Fast forward twenty years and the back tees are in play everyday, with plans afoot for new 'tiger tees.' Seemingly, and accurately, the elite kids in five years time will need access to a 7,000 yard course which, as it goes, is all but a prerequisite for Open qualifying now. We are but one of thousands of courses with these sorts of otherwise unnecessary costs and the smaller the club, the more painful the potential burden.

[BCowan]

Right, the tee issue.....

Way, way back in the late 80's and early 90's when I was just a kid I could play my home course, a 6,500 yard links, with grown men in their prime and octogenarians alike, all playing from the standard daily tees (the only tees permitted, outside of competition), the course could play anything from short as short on dry summer fairways and longer than long on a windy day in February and NEVER was it a problem for any of the participants.

Fast forward twenty years and the back tees are in play everyday, with plans afoot for new 'tiger tees.' Seemingly, and accurately, the elite kids in five years time will need access to a 7,000 yard course which, as it goes, is all but a prerequisite for Open qualifying now. We are but one of thousands of courses with these sorts of otherwise unnecessary costs and the smaller the club, the more painful the potential burden.

In the 80's/90's you were playing w woods/small metals.  Here in the states we still have some freedom to choose, but that is somewhat slipping away.  The audacity of a course allowing people to decide which set of tees to play from, gasp.  I played 7000 last weekend in 3:20 and waited.  If I were you, I would be more concerned with pre-shot routine time, excessive time reading putts, lack of walking with a purpose, and playing ready golf.  The costs are a one time thing and in house they are minimal. 

[Paul Gray]

Sorry Ben, but no. You seem to think I'm advocating limited freedom, when what I'm actually advocating is a set up which suits all without breaking the bank in the process. Believe me, I simply don't have conservative instincts but I equally don't blindly advocate disfunctional freedoms based on a misguided sense of liberty.

If we're to stick with the status quo I might as well get ahead of the curve and start playing illegal balls now. After all,  they only go as far as the legal ones will in five years time.

If I have a game with my Dad these days I play from the same tees as him as I'm more interested in playing a game with him than anything else but let's increaae the differential and force me into a position whereby the only way I can have a second shot of more than 50 yards is to wave goodbye to him as we leave each green and meet up again half a mile away. How liberating.

[BCowan]

Paul,

    You are advocating telling courses how long their courses should be, so they don't spend money on new tees to attract longer hitters.  They aren't smart enough to determine that, they need a wise person like yourself.  Disfunctional freedoms, that is another word for fascism.   

    If you want to hit it shorter, use woods instead of modern metals.  Illegal balls and status quo, that is a good one.  By the way I am not a Conservative.  Join a club or start your own and regulate what ball is to be played at the course or you could just play hickories or persimmon woods.  Jeff's persimmons only carries 230 yards in the air, I'm sure his modern driver carries 265+.

[jeffwarne]

Right, the tee issue.....

Way, way back in the late 80's and early 90's when I was just a kid I could play my home course, a 6,500 yard links, with grown men in their prime and octogenarians alike, all playing from the standard daily tees (the only tees permitted, outside of competition), the course could play anything from short as short on dry summer fairways and longer than long on a windy day in February and NEVER was it a problem for any of the participants.

Ben
Read this and see why I favor a rollback

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