350 yard tee shots

[Phil Lipper]

Why whould we care if 120 guy in the world can play a par 5 driver 9 iron, it has little bearing on the rest of the world nor does it dimiss most players ability to enjoy great classic golf courses

[Ronald Montesano]

Thread should have ended with Peterson's comment and Morrow's confirmation. I don't recall ever caring what a tour pro does to a golf ball, other than trying to learn how to do it.

It actually helps us when novices presume they can hit it as far as the guys on tv, then are shocked that they can't hit it as far as you and me.

If you hear the clapping for the next 350-yard poke, it's coming from Buffalo. What you won't hear from me is baa-baa booey or mashed potato.

[Steve Lang]

   sounds like there needs to be more trees in the way for those long hitters to play out of or around..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why whould we care if 120 guy in the world can play a par 5 driver 9 iron, it has little bearing on the rest of the world nor does it dimiss most players ability to enjoy great classic golf courses

Because it's not limited to 120 guys.

17 year old kids are doing it

[Richard Hetzel]

490 yard par 4  reduced to driver and wedge. Time to bring golf ball back to reality.

Hopefully they CAN putt and walked off with a birdie.

[Thomas Dai]

The one excellent recent development with people in effect saying no is the increased interest in hickories.  Even though I have little desire to play with hickories, I am tempting into because at least these folks are making a positive statement which is also fun, rather than standing around waggin their fingers at the USGA and R&A.  If the damn sticks were cheaper, I would have made the plunge a few years ago.        
Ciao  

Hickory golf is not as expensive as you may think. It can be expensive for sure, if you decide to go modern built replicas/reproductions from certain manufacturers, swanky bags and clothes and all that kinda stuff, but it doesn't have to be.

See E-bay, car-boot sales, garage sales, house clearance shops, auction sales, low-end antique shops etc. For example, my pre WWI putter cost £2.99 and works rather nicely. Refurbishment, if necessary, isn't expensive either or you can do it yourself as some on this site already do. Plus, as you really don't need anywhere near a 'full set' of clubs, 6-7 will do fine, the overall expense is even less.

Hickory is particularly good for the older/infirm golfer (not suggesting any reading is though! ). The shafts 'kick' the ball forward nicely and you can, if you so wish, normally play off the forward tees without any fear of hassle/embarrassment. Playing a generally shorter course also means less walking but probably with about the same number of shots.

As to understanding architecture, well hickory can show those with an interest why older courses were designed, constructed and maintained the way they were - the ongoing thread about the Redan hole at NGLA helps indicate this - see - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58670.0.html

Kington, Cleeve Cloud or Minchinhampton Old sometime with hickories would be very interesting - if you fancy this sometime get in touch, I might even let you use some of my spare ones!

What about a 9-hole hickory competition with rental hickory sets played on The Channel Course at Burnham & Berrow as part of the post-Buda day there this September?

atb

[Patrick_Mucci]

I wonder if the same was being said when players started hitting drivers consistently 250 yards, or 270 yards?

No, the same wasn't being said.

Look at "Shell's Wonderful World of Golf", the "CBS Golf Classic" and other tapes of events in the 50's, 60's and 70's for some perspective.

[jeffwarne]

Why whould we care if 120 guy in the world can play a par 5 driver 9 iron, it has little bearing on the rest of the world nor does it dimiss most players ability to enjoy great classic golf courses

It has quite a bit of bearing on the world.

Classic courses aren't being lengthened? causing walkbacks and slower rounds
Newer courses don't have vast distances between greens and tees to accomodate 6 tees?

The naysayers are right that it's the reaction  to hot balls and drivers that are the real killers, but one CANNOT deny that the game is being affected------Especially if you play competitive events or play at a course that hosts them.
With the USGA leading the way in ALL its events and other golf organizations following suit, clubs can hardly be blamed for thinking that is the way forward (err. I mean backwards)
I enjoyed a 5 1/2 hour round yesterday in an event on a course that was built in the modern era, and GREAT efforts have been made to put tees as near to greens as possible, but longer driving means more errant driving, despite bogus statements about how "straight" the ball goes now.
Tour driving accuracy has never been lower.

I'm always amazed that those least affected by a rollback-shorter hitters and average players, are most against it.
they simply wouldn't know the difference in a week, and the elite players and longest hitters are mainly FOR a rollback, as it would allow them to hone and focus on THEIR skills, rather than those of a scientist.

It would of course take a while to adjust and the miles between tees wouldn't immediately go away, but at least clubs and organizations would stop looking to make us walk backward to tees.

[Brent Hutto]

When I watch old film/video of Jack Nicklaus in his prime, hitting a steady string of 260, 270 yard drives with an occasional longer one mixed in...and then I watch a little tiny guy like Rory McIlroy swinging his driver...if Rory were not hitting an occasional 350 yarder I'd wonder WTF was up with that. Because he produces far, far more clubhead speed with more optimum technique than Jack ever did.

So as I always point out in these threads. If you want freaks like Dustin Johnson or Bubba Watson to play courses at the same length as Jack did and play even roughly the same clubs into the same greens then you're advocating a massive rollback. Because you have to eliminate both the added flight distance of the ProV1 PLUS eliminate the added distance from 10, 20, 30 percent greater power produced by today's golfers.

And then you'll have to do it all over again down the road when Dustin Johnson's grandkids are playing.

[Brent Hutto]

It would of course take a while to adjust and the miles between tees wouldn't immediately go away, but at least clubs and organizations would stop looking to make us walk backward to tees.

That's what we love about you, Jeff. You're a dreamer! ;-)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brent,

17/18 year old high school Seniors are hitting it farther than Nicklaus in his prime.

[Josh Bills]

I watched a good portion of the US Open Qualifier at Brookside GCC, including scoring for Peter Tomasulo and Steve Wheatcroft on Monday and sure those guys can hit it long, but so can a bunch of players at my club.  The difference in watching them play is their consistency and always being in or right near the fairway, and how great they all can putt.  Who cares who can hit it 350 if it isn't straight.  The low round, I believe, at Brookside was 65 by Rod Pampling, not exactly a name that stands out as a long hitter.  He kept it in play and putted well.  The tour players put it where they aim, and those are the ones who are successful, and that is more important than the 350 yard drive in my opinion.  Those with skill seem to succeed more than those with just distance.  Watching the Memorial and then the qualifier, it is clear their games are at a different level than the rest of us, at least me.  I'm not sure rollback makes any difference to these players, but would at least on the face discourage the average golfer.  I understand the concern about golf courses becoming obselete, but for the average golfer and typical course, I don't see that being a concern any time soon.  I play in various outings with average golfers throughout the summer and none of them are averaging anywhere near 350 off the tee, unless you count 200 out and 150 yards right.  

I am in the camp of rolling it back for professionals, but for now leave it alone for the average golfer even if some of the new generation hit it long, as some day they too will join the average golfer in distance.  

[Brent Hutto]

Brent,

17/18 year old high school Seniors are hitting it farther than Nicklaus in his prime.

I've met 18-year-olds who produce more clubhead speed than Nicklaus in his prime.

[Richard Hetzel]

I watched a good portion of the US Open Qualifier at Brookside GCC, including scoring for Peter Tomasulo and Steve Wheatcroft on Monday and sure those guys can hit it long, but so can a bunch of players at my club.  The difference in watching them play is their consistency and always being in or right near the fairway, and how great they all can putt.  Who cares who can hit it 350 if it isn't straight.  The low round, I believe, at Brookside was 65 by Rod Pampling, not exactly a name that stands out as a long hitter.  He kept it in play and putted well.  The tour players put it where they aim, and those are the ones who are successful, and that is more important than the 350 yard drive in my opinion.  Those with skill seem to succeed more than those with just distance.  Watching the Memorial and then the qualifier, it is clear their games are at a different level than the rest of us, at least me.  I'm not sure rollback makes any difference to these players, but would at least on the face discourage the average golfer.  I understand the concern about golf courses becoming obselete, but for the average golfer and typical course, I don't see that being a concern any time soon.  I play in various outings with average golfers throughout the summer and none of them are averaging anywhere near 350 off the tee, unless you count 200 out and 150 yards right.  

I am in the camp of rolling it back for professionals, but for now leave it alone for the average golfer even if some of the new generation hit it long, as some day they too will join the average golfer in distance.  

I agree, a few years back I followed David Duval, Charl Swartzel, and some unknown 2x college drop out golfer play Brookside CC for the US Open qualifier. The college aged kid was blowing the ball by both pros on most par 4 and par 5 holes. It didnt take me long to fingure out that Duval was ALWAYS looking for an 80 yard shot into every green and wasn't bothered that this kid, who was carrying his own golf bag, was easily outdriving him. Charl was a magician getting out of trouble and still walking away with a par or better. The college kid, with his length, didn't qualify and Duval went on to finish top 5 at Bethpage that year. I am  amazed at the easy length these kids have these days,   I am more amazed that they don't always have the rest of the game to go along with it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Richard,

When those college kids acquire a short game and course management skills they become PGA Tour Pros.

But that's not the point.

The point is that an architect prepares a field of play and designs and builds features intended to interface with the golfer.

But, this excessive length negates the architects intent and it results in the lengthening of almost every course

Have you ever heard of the Maginot Line ?

[Richard Hetzel]

Richard,

When those college kids acquire a short game and course management skills they become PGA Tour Pros.

But that's not the point.

The point is that an architect prepares a field of play and designs and builds features intended to interface with the golfer.

But, this excessive length negates the architects intent and it results in the lengthening of almost every course

Have you ever heard of the Maginot Line ?

I know that and I hate that all the great and classic courses are being deemed unworthy, when they are NOT!

Ha! I have actaully been to, and inside the Maginot Line. The tour was excellent except for the fact it was all in French and I only speak English and German!

That kid was in his mid 20's 5,years ago and I still dont see him on tour.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Richard,

His not being on Tour is irrelevant

What's relevant is that his length allows him to avoid interfacing with the architectural features as intended by the architecture.

[Mike Hendren]

If you ask me firm and fast is the real culprit.  I hit driver/wedge over the 18th green at Walton Heath Old - playing 400 yards.  Let's soak those fairways.

Bogey

[Richard Hetzel]

Richard,

His not being on Tour is irrelevant

What's relevant is that his length allows him to avoid interfacing with the architectural features as intended by the architecture.

Understood, but bombers of all eras have  avoided what the architect originally intended anyway. I say a tourney ball is needed.

[Bill Brightly]

Wrong.  Its the knee jerk reaction to the long ball which damages courses.  But then its a lot easier to blame the USGA and manufacturers for the problem when in fact its folks we know or know of who actually decide to alter courses - and usually its about ego more than anything else. Some folks can't stand the idea that their course isn't thought worthy to hold a US Open or an Open.  Its an arms race perpetuated by clubs desperate to hold onto their standing in the game - a race that can't be won.  Then of course the wannabees tag along because they are too stupid to think for themselves.  The power lies with golfers and club memberships, not with the USGA and manufacturers.  Once people get a grip on this perhaps they will be satisfied with what they have and try to preserve it.  If enough clubs and golfers say no to the USGA and R&A then we are getting somewhere, but it takes a culture shift of dropping egos.  I am firmly convinced that rolling back the ball only pushes the real problem of not being able to say no the USGA, the R&A and any other group who wants too lengthen courses to entertain the idea of hosting the best players once in a blue moon onto the next generation who will then go through the entire bunch of nonsense we and every generation before has gone through.  Manufacturers have smarter and better trained people working for them than does any golf body. Entering into an arms race only fattens their coffers to continue the status quo.  I think its the same with practically everything concerning golf. When will golfers be satisfied with what they have instead of constantly wanting more.  More short game practice areas, more par 3 courses, more putting greens, more yardage, more children playing, more women playing, more access to better clubs...more, more, more.  Its a greedy ego trip which is most unpleasant to witness.  Then to top it off, these same people want the USGA & R&A to step in to and control them from their own ego trip.  Its priceless stuff.  

The one excellent recent development with people in effect saying no is the increased interest in hickories.  Even though I have little desire to play with hickories, I am tempting into because at least these folks are making a positive statement which is also fun, rather than standing around waggin their fingers at the USGA and R&A.  If the damn sticks were cheaper, I would have made the plunge a few years ago.        

Ciao  

Sean, I am with you in spirit but I think you are underestimating the problem. Very few clubs have a prayer of hosting a US Open or even a PGA event. From a logistics standpoint, my course could never host a professional event.  But that does not mean we are not under great pressure to lengthen the course. You don't have to convince me, but I am an architecural geek who has hung out on gca.com for 8 years "getting my education." Guys like you and me are definitely a SMALL minority, and it takes all our best efforts to fight off the "make it longer" crowd.

[JESII]

Bill,

Can you expand on this pressure you feel your club is under to lengthen its course?

THis is the area I don't quite understand in this. Are there member candidates that have actually chosen another club because yours was not challenging enough? Or is it internal pressure from members wanting to have the toughest course around?

[JMEvensky]

Bill,

Can you expand on this pressure you feel your club is under to lengthen its course?

THis is the area I don't quite understand in this. Are there member candidates that have actually chosen another club because yours was not challenging enough? Or is it internal pressure from members wanting to have the toughest course around?

Not Bill,but I understand what he's hearing. My place is not classic by any definition.Further,adding a few tee boxes sounds like it was easier for us--we had the room to go backwards pretty easily so the cost was minimal. But I'll bet the arguments are similar at each of our clubs.

At most clubs,it only takes a handful of guys to sway opinion--especially when the better players are trying to sway opinion on the golf course. I'm not saying this is right,but that's the way it works.

[Thomas Dai]

....but bombers of all eras have avoided what the architect originally intended anyway. I say a tourney ball is needed.

This is not just directed at the author of this line but who do we collectively reckon a tournament ball should be aimed at, and I'm speaking worldwide here, not just a particular tour or particular country -

Just male tour Pro's?
Senior male pro's over 50?
Senior male pro's over 60?
Lady tour pro's?
Lady senior pro's?
High level amateurs and at what level and male/female?
Senior amateurs and at what level and male/female?
Even older juniors (by age/height?) and male and/or female?

I'm obviously trying to play a little bit of Devils Advocate here because there are so many categories that could-couldn't be included and when you take manufacturing/distribution etc into account the application of a tournament ball might get a rather complicated.

atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

There's a young bloke at my club who tried his luck as a tour pro for a few years, did OK, but finally gave it up for marriage and a more stable life. He's back at the club as an amateur and seemingly has never enjoyed golf or Reddish Vale more. Ours is a failry short course at 6000 yards and this guy routinely hits his drives 350 yards plus.

Does he win every competition?  Of course not! His handicap is +4, meaning that he has to shoot 65 just to score level nett. He broke the course record (again) in a competition the other week and still only came fifth!

Does he make a mockery of our Golden Age course? Of course not! While his second shots into long par 4s may be wedges instead of the fairway woods and hybrids required by most of us he has to make at least par wheras most of us are looking for bogeys and generally treat a par on such low index holes as a bonus. His strategy around the course may differ from that intended by the architect but by his standards the course is still a challenge and certainly no pushover.

Even if we had the land available to do so, I really can't see how lengthening holes would inconvenience Adam (the guy in question) at all. He's just as accurate with an 8-iron as he is with a wedge so another 50 yards to an approach shot would make little difference to him. It would make a massive difference to high handicappers however, who might find a 180 yard approach turned into 230 yards!

Ultimately, Adam uses the same clubs and the same balls as the rest of us. He's just a lot better at using them. It isn't the ball or the club that sends his drives 350 yards, it's him!

Interestingly, for all the greater distance today's players achieve, scores don't seem to be commensurately lower.  When Henry Cotton visited Reddish Vale in 1940 he played almost exactly the same course as it is today and scored 67 and 66 in the only two rounds he ever played here. Adam has played the course thousands of times and his best is 63.

[Jason Thurman]

It's so hilarious that there are people who actually believe the PGA will someday say "Yeah, let's have our professional golfing meal-tickets play a ball that goes shorter than everyone else's and sell tickets to watch them slap it 260 yards like Nicklaus!" Or that the USGA will ever say "Yeah, let's take the game of golf back to the technology of 30 years ago!" Or that in the fantasy world where things like that happen, the response of club golfers will be "Finally! Let's stop maintaining the back tees and make our course easier now!"