Holes with alternate greens

[Matthew Lloyd]

This is something that's always intrigued me but it's so rare that I haven't read much about it.  What is the design strategy behind creating a hole with two different greens?  The holes that come to mind are #9 at Pacific Dunes and #9 at Pine Valley, though I'm sure there are others. 

I love the feature and wish it was done a bit more (though not enough to lose its novelty) because it makes for fun repeat play on a course, but I would be interested to know more about the rationale behind this choice creatively. Some questions I have:

What landscape features suggest/demand this choice?

Is it discouraged from a maintenance perspective?

Is it considered "guessing" from a creative/artistic perspective? (i.e. DVDs with five different "alternate endings")

What are the best/worst examples of this design feature? (the two holes referenced above came to mind first for me and I loved the 9th at Pac Dunes and suspect I would enjoy PV #9 equally!)

[Brian Finn]

I know Riviera has a couple, most notably on the renowned 10th hole.  I believe theirs is present because the original green cannot handle heavy play under certain conditions.

[Jon Cavalier]

Manufacturers GC here in Philly has a double green on 18 - to the lower it plays as a par 4, to the upper as a par 5.  I know that both are always maintained and I think that both are always pinned, and that the club allows the player to choose (while I have played here many times, don't quote me on that).  I think that it's simply to provide nice variety for the members (especially as the upper green, which is built into the side of the very steep hill at the top of which the pro shop sits, is very difficult).

[Greg Tallman]

Prior to Lester's renovation/restoration to Greenbrier Old White the 16th hole had a pair of wildly different green complexes. They have since reverted to what I believe is the original with the hole now playing dogleg right bending around a lake that may have been enlarged since my days playing there. My guess is the other green was the result of someone seeing a little area that would bring the creek (Howard's??) into play and they placed a green just over and left of the creek some 50-80 yards ( Lester) left of the original. Personally I liked the left/creek green site better.

World Woods Pine Barrens employs a pair of greens on the 12th hole. One is brutally tough perched green with wild contours requiring an aerial approach while the other is set at fairway level, pretty tame in terms of slopes and open in front. My guess here is they built the perched green first and then thought it was too difficult for everyday play so they built the second green.

Not many supers or accountants going to push for more greens to maintain.   

[Wade Whitehead]

The River Course at Kingsmill originally had two greens on the par five third.

I've played World Woods Pine Barrens several times and have never seen the lower green in play.  Anyone know if they actually use it?

WW

[Rob Curtiss]

Greg,

I have played WW many times over the last 5 years and the green perched up top is always the one open. I have played it quite well most of the time. The last time I played - about 2 months ago- they had the other green open. It was the first time I have ever played to that green.
I wish they alternated greens more often-it would be a nice suprise from time to time to come up to the tee box and see the easier green.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

I have played WW many times over the last 5 years and the green perched up top is always the one open. I have played it quite well most of the time. The last time I played - about 2 months ago- they had the other green open. It was the first time I have ever played to that green.
I wish they alternated greens more often-it would be a nice suprise from time to time to come up to the tee box and see the easier green.

Have played both and the upper green is far more demanding. Last round there I believe I had a 4 iron off a downhill lie trying to hit to that green that is better suited for a wedge approach.

[Jaeger Kovich]

The second hole at LACC North has 2 greens. The par-4 version and the par-5 version, which i think was more like the original, is way out to the right... Then they built an alternate hole as well at #17!

[Carl Rogers]

Nansemond River Golf Course in Suffolk, VA ...  Ault-Cark-Curtis Strange effort has a pair of greens on the par 5, 13th hole.  
Do not agree with the design because both greens are located adjacent to the river's edge, thus one very attractive green site is out of play at all times.  Need new routing plan to take advantage fo both green sites.

Which is why I think the 2 greens at PD #9 works well, because in my severly modest opinion that hole is least exciting on the course.

[Tim Johnson]

Lakeview in Toronto 17th two greens, one plays 145 (lower) the other is 95 yards(upper) to a small green perched in the side a hill. Behind the green, steep hill, front of the green drops down. The green is not deep, unsure of dimensions(maybe 15 yards) but you have to trust your club and hope to land on the green, missing it leaves some very difficult options. Hitting it long means coming out of long grass from a steep down hill slope, really tough to keep it on the green.

Love the pressure of trying to hit a 3/4 wedge especially if the match is tight. It is a small green so there is very little room for error. The lower hole is ok with a water hazard on the right but it doesn't have pressure of the upper hole. Always love walking off 16 to see which tee block is in play.

[Richard Hetzel]

A local muni here in Cincinnati (Sharon Woods GC) actually has 2 greens for the par 3 2nd hole. I will see if I can dig up pics of it...I am sure I have seen a few others out of the many courses that I have played....

[Michael Felton]

Matthew,

There's another one that's pretty close to the 9th at Pine Valley. Namely the 8th at Pine Valley. I figured that was because that green is so small that you need both to spread the wear.

[Tom_Doak]

I have seen alternate greens employed for a variety of different reasons:

1.  So that one or both of the greens could be quite small without the traffic wearing it down
     (Pelican Hill, Shadow Creek, several other Tom Fazio courses, 10 at Riviera, all stemming from the 8th at Pine Valley)

2.  To speed up play - using two parallel par-3 holes for alternate groups
     (Several RTJ public courses)

3.  To prevent women from having to make a forced carry
     (Blackwolf Run)

4.  As a compromise solution in restoration after the original green site had been abandoned
     (#2 LACC)

5.  Because the architect couldn't choose between two good options
     (9th Pine Valley and 9th Pacific Dunes)

[EDIT - I forgot #6]

6.  Similar to #1, in Japan, many older courses built two greens for EVERY hole in order to deal with turf problems common to Japan.  Usually one green is bentgrass and one is korai, for winter and summer play ... but sometimes they are both the same grass, and they just use the "sub green" as a backup in case they have turf troubles maintaining the main green, due to the hot and humid conditions.


At Pacific Dunes the upper green came first, but after we did the clearing I thought a lot about the lower option ... there was a good site with a lot of natural contour, and I liked how it would cause players to want to do different things with their tee ball.  So, I suggested to Mike that we use it as an alternate and combine that with alternate 10th tees, and he agreed.  I don't think he would have let us build just the lower green because it had so much contour, but I convinced him it was ok if it would only be used part-time.

[Richard Hetzel]

Tom, are holes with 2 greens a "tough sell" to the client?

[Jon McSweeny]

Any course with an alternate green that functions as an alternate for more than one hole?

With just a couple such greens you could vary the course experience fairly dramatically I would think.

[Chris Cupit]

The Engh course at Lake Oconee has an eighteenth hole with three alternate greens.  Kinda gimmicky to me.

[Ben Hollerbach]

The 18th at the Golf Club of Oklahoma has 2 greens. One is up the hill towards the clubhouse and the other is down on the lake. I believe they are both pinned every day and its the group selection which one to go towards. I think most members play the lakeside green, which makes the hole a little shorter and possible to hit in 2. There really isn't any benefit to having both greens.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, are holes with 2 greens a "tough sell" to the client?

I've only ever done the one, so I don't really know.  The only architect I know of who has done them even close to often is Tom Fazio, and I suspect it wasn't a hard sell for him, since his whole selling strategy was "if you have to ask about money, you can't afford me."

It SHOULD be a tough sell ... two smaller greens are more expensive to build (and to maintain) than one normal-sized green.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I have seen alternate greens employed for a variety of different reasons:

1.  So that one or both of the greens could be quite small without the traffic wearing it down
     (Pelican Hill, Shadow Creek, several other Tom Fazio courses, 10 at Riviera, all stemming from the 8th at Pine Valley)

2.  To speed up play - using two parallel par-3 holes for alternate groups
     (Several RTJ public courses)

3.  To prevent women from having to make a forced carry
     (Blackwolf Run)

4.  As a compromise solution in restoration after the original green site had been abandoned
     (#2 LACC)

5.  Because the architect couldn't choose between two good options
     (9th Pine Valley and 9th Pacific Dunes)


At Pacific Dunes the upper green came first, but after we did the clearing I thought a lot about the lower option ... there was a good site with a lot of natural contour, and I liked how it would cause players to want to do different things with their tee ball.  So, I suggested to Mike that we use it as an alternate and combine that with alternate 10th tees, and he agreed.  I don't think he would have let us build just the lower green because it had so much contour, but I convinced him it was ok if it would only be used part-time.

What hole at Shadow Creek? I don't remeber seeing one when I played, nor do I see one on their aerial.

#6 at Belfair West has 2 greens. #7 at Fazios Kiawah Island used to have 2 prior to renovation.

[Rees Milikin]

Greg,

I have played WW many times over the last 5 years and the green perched up top is always the one open. I have played it quite well most of the time. The last time I played - about 2 months ago- they had the other green open. It was the first time I have ever played to that green.
I wish they alternated greens more often-it would be a nice suprise from time to time to come up to the tee box and see the easier green.

What were your thoughts on the alternate green?  I have never seen it used, but really like the usual one, so not sure if I have been missing much.

[Rees Milikin]

Shelby Park Muni in Nashville has an alternate green for a fair amount of holes.  Not sure why, maybe Michael Hendren knows more about this.

[BCrosby]

Many courses in the SE, including East Lake, once had alternate summer and winter greens. East Lake's jump off the page in 1930's aerials.

Bob

[Jonathan Mallard]

Belmont GC. site of the 1949 PGA, had alternate greens at the 16th.

I was playing there with my grandfather circa 1982, and they were in the process of making the single green that is there today.

[Tom_Doak]

What hole at Shadow Creek? I don't remeber seeing one when I played, nor do I see one on their aerial.

#6 at Belfair West has 2 greens. #7 at Fazios Kiawah Island used to have 2 prior to renovation.

Anthony:

The 10th at Shadow Creek [I'm pretty sure it was the 10th] had two greens when it opened.  I forgot that I'd heard at some point they gave up the alternate green, which was really a pretty boring green.  The hole was very similar to the one at World Woods [like they Xeroxed the same plan ].

I will look at my Shadow Creek history book tomorrow at the office to see what it says (or doesn't say) about the alternate green.

Mr. Fazio must have built a dozen similar holes in the late 80's and early 90's.  As I mentioned, it was his solution to the problem of the small green at the 8th at Pine Valley, and that gave him the idea to build more holes in a similar vein ... though none of them approached the 8th at Pine Valley in severity or interest.

This reminds me that I forgot another whole category of two-green holes ... all the courses in Japan that have two greens on every hole!

[Mike Tanner]

Correction on the architect of Nansemond River in Suffolk,VA. It's Tom Steele, not Ault Clark-Curtis Strange. And, yeah, the green overlooking the river is superior to the other green on that par 5.