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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2022, 06:03:04 PM »
It’s just about as expensive as PB these days!
 :o
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2022, 06:09:23 PM »



 Instead of starting a new thread I thought we could revisit this.


 Seems that Kingsbarns has lost some of its love. And I wonder why.


 I think it has the best set of Par 3s in Scotland.


 Holes with nice variety. The 11th is superior to 18 at pebble beach.


 What is not to love about the design? It’s scenic. Not overly difficult. What’s happened?


I have played only 9 courses in Scotland. I cannot actually remember the Par 3s at Castle Stuart even though I almost made a hole in one on one of them, but I would rank all of them lower than the Par 3s at KB in the following order:


Golspie
NB
Royal Dornoch
Brora
Elie (only two but terrific)
Crail Balcomie
Nairn
Kilspindie (Number 8 is all world)


Ira





Anthony Gray

Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2022, 06:24:14 PM »

 Holes with nice variety. The 11th is superior to 18 at pebble beach.



You must mean the 12th.  And no, it's not.


 The 12 yes. It has more width. More variety of angles. A better place to lay up. The green has much more movement with more available pin placements. The far left pin is a pure joy. The 18th at PB has very little places to miss it and even when you haven’t missed it there is that tree.


 I would love to hear more from you on this.




Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2022, 06:49:26 PM »
People had a lot - A LOT - of fun playing the twelfth. I’ve seen it birdied off the black tee to tripled to two or three balls in the ocean.
The view from the tee is probably the single most photo-ed spot on the course.
It beats the 18th at PB simply by not having a pug-ugly concrete wall running along half of it!
Love,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Anthony Gray

Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2022, 07:28:03 PM »
It’s just about as expensive as PB these days!
 :o
F.


 And it has lists it appeal that it’s a local course because of it.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2022, 06:02:10 PM »



 Instead of starting a new thread I thought we could revisit this.


 Seems that Kingsbarns has lost some of its love. And I wonder why.


 I think it has the best set of Par 3s in Scotland.


 Holes with nice variety. The 11th is superior to 18 at pebble beach.


 What is not to love about the design? It’s scenic. Not overly difficult. What’s happened?


I thoroughly enjoyed Kingsbarns. Not difficult, but fun and ruggedly beautiful.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2022, 07:32:59 PM »
The 12th has an interesting green complex but it is a fairly uninteresting long slog to get there. IMO of course.


Niall

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2022, 08:17:26 PM »
The holes people universally loved above the others were:
3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 15, 17.
The other holes were a bunch of fun with great green sites or fun approaches or cracking par 3s. The public are eedjits.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Anthony Gray

Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2022, 08:19:45 PM »
The holes people universally loved above the others were:
3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 15, 17.
The other holes were a bunch of fun with great green sites or fun approaches or cracking par 3s. The public are eedjits.
F.


 12 13 and 14 are a nice loop.

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2022, 08:56:39 AM »
Loved KB on my one play in extremely windy conditions. I thought the 7th hole was really cool, partially because (I thought) it may have been drivable, I ended up far left in the swale and had a blind shot to the green. But I just went back to the website and see it’s typically a long hard par 4 usually into the wind, so either played it in different conditions (May) or am wrong. Maybe it would play better or be a better hole if everyone played it as a short par 4?

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2022, 09:14:08 AM »
Loved KB on my one play in extremely windy conditions. I thought the 7th hole was really cool, partially because (I thought) it may have been drivable, I ended up far left in the swale and had a blind shot to the green. But I just went back to the website and see it’s typically a long hard par 4 usually into the wind, so either played it in different conditions (May) or am wrong. Maybe it would play better or be a better hole if everyone played it as a short par 4?


Matt,
Think you mean the sixth? There’s no way the seventh is driveable!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2022, 09:20:20 AM »


Matt,
Think you mean the sixth? There’s no way the seventh is driveable!
F.



Thanks Marty yes you’re correct!  They’re both dogleg lefts but the 6th slightly more severe, that’s the hole I was thinking of and have a lot of love for.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2022, 09:30:40 AM »
I love the sixth. Options galore!
I’d get shorter hitters to go over the right bunker and have a fun running approach shot down the hill. We’d get longer hitters to blast one over the left bunker and use the slope up to the seventh tee as a backstop to run the ball back to the green. Those were exciting!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2022, 10:06:17 AM »
I enjoyed Kingsbarn immensely. Played in 2007 so my memory may not be the best.


Without echoing all the positive sentiments expressed so far, I wanted to make an observation that may come across as a minor criticism (but not intended as such).


I thought several of the par 4 fairways were pinched at around 260 yards to the point where it felt like a formula.


To further that feeling, I played Castle Stuart 2 years later. As I went around the course, I felt I could pick out which holes were designed by Mark Parsinen as there were a few Par 4 fairways pinched in the same manner as Kingsbarn.  I say that not even knowing if the collaboration between Hanse and Parsinen was that each designed specific holes, but that’s what it felt like


I almost felt scared to post this, especially after reading the apparently now deleted post on board decorum. I didn’t realize topics were so sensitive here to the point where you could get accused of putting from the wrong side of the fairway or something like that :-)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2022, 03:19:37 PM »
I enjoyed Kingsbarn immensely. Played in 2007 so my memory may not be the best.


Without echoing all the positive sentiments expressed so far, I wanted to make an observation that may come across as a minor criticism (but not intended as such).


I thought several of the par 4 fairways were pinched at around 260 yards to the point where it felt like a formula.


To further that feeling, I played Castle Stuart 2 years later. As I went around the course, I felt I could pick out which holes were designed by Mark Parsinen as there were a few Par 4 fairways pinched in the same manner as Kingsbarn.  I say that not even knowing if the collaboration between Hanse and Parsinen was that each designed specific holes, but that’s what it felt like


I almost felt scared to post this, especially after reading the apparently now deleted post on board decorum. I didn’t realize topics were so sensitive here to the point where you could get accused of putting from the wrong side of the fairway or something like that :-)


Mike:  I doubt there are holes at Castle Stuart that are "all Mark" or "all Gil" although there might be a couple -- when we built Sebonack we didn't divide it up like that, although there are a couple of holes that are pretty much all Jack's.


But I think you are right that the feature you're picking up on was Mark Parsinen's idea.  Mark had a lot more ideas and "rules" about design in his head than I do, or than I think Gil would typically have.  [Another, that I debated with him to no avail, was that every green contour should tie into a bigger feature at the edge of the green.]  Whether that's for better or worse depends on the observer.

Mark Molyneux

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2022, 04:31:15 PM »
Well, that 215 pound fee does seem stiff. I played Kingsbarns in 2020 for rather less than that. Loved the place!


The practice facility was top notch. The clubhouse was special, especially given the Dunhill connection. Ian, my caddie was exceptional with the exception of the first hole, when I thought the bunkers in the driving area warranted mention.


Hole 1 featured those bunkers, hidden from the tee. Didn't need to start with a double. Hole 2 brought us right to the sea and I'd been looking forward to that! We never wandered far from the beach and that was a definite plus. Number 3 ran back in the opposite direction, allowing a quick comparison of the wind in both directions. Staying within view of the water for 90% of the time on the course was great... had I not run down into a couple pot bunkers deeper than I was tall, the percentage might've been higher. The gorse around 5 green in all of its golden glory was mostly ornamental but it did play on other holes. Playing #6 afforded me a vision of the clubhouse at Crail and a reason to return to Fife. Then of course there's the narrow burn on #7, courtesy of Napoleon's army. #8 had me playing a mid-iron down to the green with that gaping pot bunker front left side. On 9, I said something about "trees being 90% air" and Ian reminded me that screen doors are too. At 10, the caddy had to point me in a generally productive direction. He did a great job as I saw, once I arrived at my ball. It seemed like there were endless choices from 10 tee. At 11, I was saved from one of the deeper pots by a rake. I moved the rake and my ball dropped in, five feet down. Somebody told me that I could replace my ball and whether that's true or not, I replaced and got off a good shot. That qualified as a first class miracle! Is there a patron Saint of Balata? The twelfth featured that spectacular back tee box, surrounded by gorse... it was the golf equivalent of walking the halls at Versailles. Isn't 13 that stylish par 3 that played down into the quarry? I sort of remember thinking that someone must've whacked a ball off the stone wall and onto the green. The long slog up 14 gave me a good look at the sea birds and made me wonder which side of the middle bunker was safest. Number 15 is flat out a world class par 3. In a heavier left-to-right wind, I could almost hear myself cursing. 16 reminded me of Pebble Beach... but then, come to think of it, so did 17. I birdied 18, where Yoda should be the caddie for the approach shot, "Do or don't do. There is no try."


My experience was 99% positive. I played the Old Course the following day, where the experience was even better. I played Kingsbarns not because I got squeezed out at The Old but because I wanted to. I regard the experience at the New as comparable to Kingsbarns and Jubilee, just slightly less.

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2022, 06:50:19 AM »
It’s just about as expensive as PB these days!
 :o
F.


£346 this summer!

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2022, 06:36:54 PM »
It’s just about as expensive as PB these days!
 :o
F.


£346 this summer!
~ $485 (or $27 per hole)
I wonder how many holes folks would play if they had to pay $25 on each tee box.  ;D
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2022, 07:44:32 PM »
It’s just about as expensive as PB these days!
 :o
F.


£346 this summer!
~ $485 (or $27 per hole)
I wonder how many holes folks would play if they had to pay $25 on each tee box.  ;D


That would be interesting . . .


But, obviously, they wouldn’t be able to charge that much if people weren’t willing to pay that much.


The top 100 lists are now essentially a price setting mechanism.  The same people go to play these courses, and if they’re willing to pay $$$$$ at another course in the top 40 or whatever, that’s a pretty strong indicator of what the others can get.

Anthony Gray

Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2022, 08:02:01 PM »
It’s just about as expensive as PB these days!
 :o
F.


£346 this summer!
~ $485 (or $27 per hole)
I wonder how many holes folks would play if they had to pay $25 on each tee box.  ;D


 Public courses are having an elitist feel now. I’m happy I’ve gone back to my golfing roots.




Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2022, 04:05:11 AM »
It’s just about as expensive as PB these days!
 :o
F.


£346 this summer!
~ $485 (or $27 per hole)
I wonder how many holes folks would play if they had to pay $25 on each tee box.  ;D

I thought the same thing about university lectures. It would be the best feedback professors would ever get!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2022, 05:40:39 AM »
If a golf course is going to charge $5-7 for every SHOT it better be a damn exceptional experience!  ;D
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2022, 09:45:03 AM »
I played Kingsbarns back in 2001 when it first opened.
The setting was dramatic and there were many good holes. The starters asked us to play from the wrong tees which diminished the experience( too short). The catering room featured many burgers and was filled with a lot of Americans sporting ball caps and shorts.



Far too long back to remember individual holes but I do recall noting it was a far more aerial game at this course. And the mystery was that for that trip, and several follow up trips, I would talk to subjects of the Kingdom, caddie or pub crawlers, and invariably they would insist we must play KB.

I finally realized that for them this American style of of play and overall experience was unique and therefore appealing while also realizing I didn't fly thousands of miles to get what I could find in my own back yard
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2022, 10:44:52 AM »
If I can find Kingsbarns in my own backyard, please let me know where.  I live in DC. 

I've been fortunate to play KB but know Renaissance only from TV.  For those who've played both and are negative on KB, is the catering/grill room at RC any less "American"?  Is the cost per shot any lower for a RC member than a KB visitor?  If both are Doak 7s, do you prefer one to the other, and why?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 11:15:01 AM by Bernie Bell »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Kingsbarns
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2022, 11:38:08 AM »
If I can find Kingsbarns in my own backyard, please let me know where.  I live in DC. 

I've been fortunate to play KB but know Renaissance only from TV.  For those who've played both and are negative on KB, is the catering/grill room at RC any less "American"?  Is the cost per shot any lower for a RC member than a KB visitor?  If both are Doak 7s, do you prefer one to the other, and why?


Hi Bernie:


I don't know that you'll find many people who prefer The Renaissance Club to Kingsbarns.  Maybe a couple.


The Renaissance Club is further removed from the water, of course, but on top of that, I didn't want to move 500,000 cubic yards of earth to build a course in Scotland; I just didn't think that was a fitting approach for the location.  I consoled myself with the idea that the Scots would be perfectly happy with a lower-profile course that didn't focus so much on aesthetics or views.


But, they haven't sold many memberships to Scots; they sell them to Americans and to English guys and Europeans who want a base in East Lothian.


I doubt you'd find the grill room traffic much different.  The taxi driver who took me to the club this fall referred to the place as "little Texas".   :D   As to the cost per shot, I guess it depends on how many rounds you play!