Kingsbarns

[Alex Miller]

Per their website the green fee (1st May-16th Nov) is £215 (I believe members of Scottish clubs used to get a substantial discount - is this still the case?).

Golf Professionals (PGA) and BIGGA* members at £78 and Junior golfers (under 18) at £65.

£215 for 18-holes, that's like £12 per hole!

Kingsbarns may be an amazing course, it may be in amazing condition, you may get treated like God, and if I could get to play it for a more sensible price, ie significantly less or on a business/society freebee, that would be different, but......£12 per hole. No way!

atb

*greenkeepers

At the end of October, my buddies and I chose to play both courses at Crail, Leven, Elie, New, and Eden for about the same as 1 round at Kingsbarns would have cost. We definitely got the Scottish experience we came for on those courses (and the Old) and later torched our wallets at Muirfield  . Hopefully a return trip will allow for a Kingsbarns experience, but there is a lot to see in Fife!

[Marty Bonnar]

I had the BEST caddy ever at Kingsbarns. Loved teh course and the caddy-experience certainly helped. Some fat, bald musician....

My pleasure, Jim. Sometimes wish I was still there. This 'having a real job' thing is too much like work!!!

F.

[Marty Bonnar]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that with around a couple of hundred walks around KB, I know it as well as anybody (except maybe Kyle P and the permanent caddie corps).
There's much to commend it. Given the incredibly unpromising nature of the original terrain, it is quite simply a magnificent achievement to have produced what is there. For anyone with an interest in architecture, it is unmissable. It's a great, fun round of golf in a beautiful scenic setting - and it's Scotland, baby!
Would I pay two hundred and fifteen quid to play it? No. But loads of people will. I think there's better value to be had in Scottish links golf, but I'd certainly recommend it as a once in a lifetime experience, if nothing else. Especially for sad Archie freaks like us 
F.

[Jon Wiggett]

Hello Jon,
May I ask why you think 18 is a bad hole? Yes it is a bit plainer than the balance of the course but I think it's a good hole. Depending upon weather I have hit anywhere from a hybrid to a wedge to the green. I have witnessed some real train wrecks with shots coming up short and players attempting some heroic recovery shots. If the hole is located in the front of the green precise iron play is required to have a reasonable chance at a birdie. If in the back and you overclub that downhill down wind chip is really nasty.

What am I missing?

ed

Ed,

they have gone to so much trouble and effort to create a classical links course then you get to 18. The tee shot is fine but once you crest the ridge you are facing something that just screams Disneyland gimmicky golf. Out of character chasm which is obviously manmade fronts the green. No run on shot possible got to a high aerial route that also requires as you to be pinpoint accurate. Short is dead, long is dead and wrong side of the green is a nightmare.

I have the opposite opinion to you in that I think it is completely out of character for the course as a whole and the second shot has no redeeming features IMHO. Put in a fountain and a cute flower bed in the form of the KB logo and the image would be complete. Were I to play the course regularly I would pick up after the drive on 18 and head to the clubhouse savouring the previous 17.5 quality golf holes.

But that is just my opinion.

Jon

[Ed Brzezowski]

Jon,
I just went back and looked at all the pics I have of the green and the front. I respectfully disagree. Yes while a run up shot is almost impossible so is a run up on 1 at TOC.  From my pics, and not experience, I see there is water in that small creek cutting in front of the green. Is this correct? Or were we there during a unusual event. We went last July and it never got under 80 degrees during the day. I seem to recall some burns fronting greens at Carnoustie. What makes this one so offensive as to compare it to Disneyworld? I have putted off my fair share of greens in Scotland, why is this different?

ed

[Jon Wiggett]

Ed,

you asked for my opinion and I gave. If you read what I wrote it answers your questions. I never said anything about putting off the green as far as I can recall. If you can not see the difference between the green complex at TOC 1 and KB 18 then there is little point in discussing it. Do you really think the KB 18th green complex is Linksy or that TOC 1st is not?

As for Carnoustie 18, I never said I liked or disliked it. Oh, no creeks in Scotland Ed though I dare say Disney has the odd one

Jon

[Marty Bonnar]

The chasm at KB was a 'found feature'. As they were excavating the area, they came across it. Turns out it's an old stone-lined field drain. Built by prisoners from the Napoleonic Wars! Somebody thought it would be nice to use it...
F.

[R_Paulis]

Mike,

You are a man after of my own heart. This was a an old potato field and that became a very good golf course. I would rather play it on a regular basis than either the  New or Jubilee. I would add that I do have an advantage in not having to pay the full tariff.

Bob

Bob:

I would not disagree with any of the above, but is not being better than the New or Jubilee course a fairly low bar to clear?

How would you compare Kingsbarns to the other top-10 Scottish courses?

Tom,

In my own perverse opinion it does not better TOC, Muirfield, Dornoch or Turnberry but it does please me more than the charms of Cruden, N.Berwick, Prestwick and the  muscle of Carnoustie.  I think of it as a tie with Western Gailes.

Bob

First and only trip to Scotland what can't be over a decade ago can it? Two of the most memorable and enjoyable rounds where at Kingsbarns and Western Gailes. Perhaps I was a bit homesick, but the conditions and style of Kingsbarns was reminiscent of US courses. After a four week walkabout it was refreshing to me, albeit manufactured...

Western Gailes made me feel at home. Staff apologized profusely for not having a partner or match for me but it was enjoyable to go it alone. Arrived sometime midweek with appropriately gusting winds. Walked the entire course without seeing another soul.  Sublime day  and hard to forget.

[Jon Wiggett]

The chasm at KB was a 'found feature'. As they were excavating the area, they came across it. Turns out it's an old stone-lined field drain. Built by prisoners from the Napoleonic Wars! Somebody thought it would be nice to use it...
F.

Marty,

I know and they found an old stone bridge and the whole story is very romantic and all. I do not intend for people to think I dislike KB, indeed nothing could be further from the truth. What they did there was quite spectacular. I just find the 18th green complex so disappointing and maybe this is in part due to the quality of what precedes it.

Jon

[Mark Pearce]

For what it's worth I also am not a fan of 18 and Jon's description of his reasoning fits mine exactly.  It just doesn't look or feel like a hole that belongs on a links.

[Tom_Doak]

For what it's worth I also am not a fan of 18 and Jon's description of his reasoning fits mine exactly.  It just doesn't look or feel like a hole that belongs on a links.

It looks and feels like a hole that belongs on an American course that wants to host a tournament ... the difficult par-4 finisher.  There are some of these on links courses, but not many of them in Scotland, except for Carnoustie.  Its lack of forgiveness is also a bit out of character for Kingsbarns.

[Matt MacIver]

For the record it was Tom that previously mentioned his dislike for the 6th, but it's my kind of hole: swing hard for glory but plenty of room to miss.  I've no problem with water beyond the green with a wedge in my hand, since I'd putt a 3w up there close anyway....

And that's why the 18th is so disconcerting.  After 17 very linksy holes with lots of contours and run up options you have a forced carry - whoa!  It's out of character with the other 70 shots I've played so far (ok, ~92). I bet the 18th was initially drawn up different before they unearthed the bridge.

So coming full circle: great 17 hole course with a yucky 18th, reminiscent of CPC. 

[Mark Pearce]

For what it's worth I also am not a fan of 18 and Jon's description of his reasoning fits mine exactly.  It just doesn't look or feel like a hole that belongs on a links.

It looks and feels like a hole that belongs on an American course that wants to host a tournament ... the difficult par-4 finisher.  There are some of these on links courses, but not many of them in Scotland, except for Carnoustie.  Its lack of forgiveness is also a bit out of character for Kingsbarns.

Thanks, Tom, you've absolutely nailed what's wrong with 18.  At Carnoustie 18 is completely consistent with what has gone before.  At Kingsbarns it's like walking onto an entirely different course, in a different country.

[Bob_Huntley]

The chasm at KB was a 'found feature'. As they were excavating the area, they came across it. Turns out it's an old stone-lined field drain. Built by prisoners from the Napoleonic Wars! Somebody thought it would be nice to use it...
F.

Martin,

That what I was told and they had a document to prove it, I woul hazard a guess that it was not a bad idea to build it as is, but it does seem a bit awkward.

The first time I played Kingsbarns the Grees Fee was fifteen pounds. it then went to twenty five and today it is up to forty five pounds. Worth every penny!

Bob


 

[Greg Tallman]

For what it's worth I also am not a fan of 18 and Jon's description of his reasoning fits mine exactly.  It just doesn't look or feel like a hole that belongs on a links.

It looks and feels like a hole that belongs on an American course that wants to host a tournament ... the difficult par-4 finisher.  There are some of these on links courses, but not many of them in Scotland, except for Carnoustie.  Its lack of forgiveness is also a bit out of character for Kingsbarns.

Tom, you have professed to being a big fan of KB in the past. Are the other 16 holes so good as to overcome the shortcomings of the 6th and 18th? 

[Rich Goodale]

For what it's worth I also am not a fan of 18 and Jon's description of his reasoning fits mine exactly.  It just doesn't look or feel like a hole that belongs on a links.

It looks and feels like a hole that belongs on an American course that wants to host a tournament ... the difficult par-4 finisher.  There are some of these on links courses, but not many of them in Scotland, except for Carnoustie.  Its lack of forgiveness is also a bit out of character for Kingsbarns.

Thanks, Tom, you've absolutely nailed what's wrong with 18.  At Carnoustie 18 is completely consistent with what has gone before.  At Kingsbarns it's like walking onto an entirely different course, in a different country.

Mark and Tom

I know that KB has tried to fix the 18th over the past few years (only partially successfully), but you are both right that it lacks a bit of je ne sais quoi, but here's my guess as to what the "sais quoi" is.....

If I were Art Dunkley, I'd think "Reverse 8th at Pebble!"

That is to say:

--get out the dozers in the fall and dig a chasm from 150-160 out from the green to the edge of tghe burn
--take the soil from that cut and use it to create a flattish bail-out area to the right side of the fairway (up close to the clubhouse), to which the timid could lay up for a 100-120 (but tricky and redanish) approach to the green.
--Fill the cut out area on the direct line to the green with gorse

Voila!  Mediocrity turned into greatness!

Rich

PS--one of the saddest sights I have ever seen in golf was 2-3 years ago when one of the great stalwarts of the game, Michael Bollanack, hit a marvellous drive (for a geezer) on the 18th in the Dunhill Cup only to then be presented with an impossible downhill approach to the raised green.  He tried, valiantly, to execute the shot, but ended up in the burn and eventually picked up.  Never again!

rfg

[Jon Wiggett]

If it were me, I would have left the culvert covered and given the green a false front. I also find that the 11th does not have the same character as the rest of the course but it does fit the land it traverses and so is not out of place.

Jon

[Nick Church]

Given the original premise --- I'd say it is the price.

Kingsbarns was scheduled for a morning round on our first full day in Scotland.  Our seven-day itinerary was loaded & so that afternoon was purposely open for rest or casual sight seeing.  I was concerned I had over-loaded the schedule and risked mutiny by the fourth or fifth day. 

Immediately after the first 18, my guys enthusiastically pushed for a second eighteen at Kingsbarns.  The entire experience was outstanding and so I was not about to dissuade them.  As much as we enjoyed the exuberance of our caddies, my guys endorsed walking the second trip with trolleys.

We ended the day as the very last group on the course.  In fact, the cattle (?) gates were closed.  Executing the semi-gymnastic maneuvers to haul the bags & trolleys over the gates just added to the laughs for us.

We reviewed our highlights for the umpteenth time on the return flight.  The consensus remained that Kingsbarns was the best day in Scotland.  I've told others that Kingsbarns should be included on any trip to St. Andrews.

[Garland Bayley]

I had the BEST caddy ever at Kingsbarns. Loved teh course and the caddy-experience certainly helped. Some fat, bald musician....

My pleasure, Jim. Sometimes wish I was still there. This 'having a real job' thing is too much like work!!!

F.

 

Exactly how much scotch did you give him during the round?

 

 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, you have professed to being a big fan of KB in the past. Are the other 16 holes so good as to overcome the shortcomings of the 6th and 18th? 

Greg:

My quibble about #6 is just that -- a quibble -- in response to several people who think it's one of the great short par-4's in golf.  I certainly don't think it's that, but it's a pretty good hole.

I have always said that I have tremendous respect for the job well done there -- the construction and shaping work especially, and how successfully they mimicked natural contouring.  [Although, when you look at it on Google Earth, it stands out brightly how artificial it all is.] 

I think the course is very good, but as I said earlier here, a little bit overrated ... there is no way I would put it ahead of Cruden Bay, North Berwick, or Prestwick as Bob did earlier.  Those are all 8's on the Doak Scale ... Kingsbarns is a solid 7.  7 is damned good, and for what they started with, it's pretty amazing.

[Gary Slatter]

In my own perverse opinion it does not better TOC, Muirfield, Dornoch or Turnberry but it does please me more than the charms of Cruden, N.Berwick, Prestwick and the  muscle of Carnoustie.  I think of it as a tie with Western Gailes.

Can't fathom playing KB over Prestwick personally.  Best manufactured modern course is not something I get on a transatlantic flight to see, but we're long on very good modern courses and woefully short of real links on this side of the pond.  There's a distinction between which course is "better" and which course you'd want to play on a return to the home of golf.  I suspect the perspective of a local might be somewhat different once you get beyond cost.

Jud, locals get to play KB for special low  rates, when times are available.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jud,

I would say that likes and beauty are in the eye of the beholder. I have played the courses that you prefer many times and always enjoyed my round. Should I have the good fortune to get back to Scotland to play golf, which I doubt, I would not hesitate to do so again. However, I have played TOC a whole lot more and find that it takes care of my nostalgia for the classics. Kingsbarns has had a tough time with GCA members, some of whom  have never played it. I daresay my affection for the place is because I saw an old potato field turned into a very good course indeed.

Bob

[Gary Slatter]

Switch the nines, then 18th isn't as bad.  Lay up par fours shouldn't decide a match. 

[Anthony Gray]

 Instead of starting a new thread I thought we could revisit this.


 Seems that Kingsbarns has lost some of its love. And I wonder why.


 I think it has the best set of Par 3s in Scotland.


 Holes with nice variety. The 11th is superior to 18 at pebble beach.


 What is not to love about the design? It’s scenic. Not overly difficult. What’s happened?

[Tom_Doak]

 Holes with nice variety. The 11th is superior to 18 at pebble beach.

You must mean the 12th.  And no, it's not.