NCAA at Prairie Dunes

[Mike_Young]

I'm a little surprised that the heavy stuff is so, well, heavy this early in the season.  We had the worst winter in a generation and it only warmed up a couple weeks ago.   Do they not cut it down at least once a year?  What's the average age/handicap of the membership?  Are they generally happy with the presentation of the course?

It actually is less dense and lighter this year because of the weather. There is a burn program where they do a scheduled burn every couple of years. They also do work to manage anything that grows with a wood stem so to speak. but it is the midwest and it is native and it grows REALLY fast.

Average age is near death and handicaps run the gamut. Members learn how to play the course keeping the ball down and way from trouble as much as possible. I believe they generally they are happy  as there is a badge of honor element to the difficulty presented. The members are not happy with no wind this past week as no one likes to see their course get taken apart like they did.

Sean,

This is one of the most astute posts regarding the attitude of a membership hosting a big event that I've ever seen on the site.  I can just see the stereotypical 72 year-old retired Hutch banker bemoaning softness of the turf and the weakness of the winds while the college kids were competing.  I can only imagine how many Member Guest events wound up with wacky scores because of the seemingly ever-present 25 m.p.h. plus winds that zip across Prairie Dunes.  The truth is, the average member of a private club wants to see great players suffer on their own field of dreams, a course that has humbled and frustrated them for decades.  It's human nature, after all.

The last time PD held a big event was the US Senior Open in 2006, and there was no wind, the tees were up and the members STILL bitch about it. The wind ALWAYS blows there, as you know, so to have it happen again is unreal.

Yep..one of our members won that one...I think it was a repeat from 2005.  He beat TW if I am correct....

[Terry Lavin]

Sean,

I was Grounds Chairman at Olympia for the '03 Open and everybody is still lamenting the first two days' weather AND the USGA's decision to cut the rough to 3 1/2 inches.  It absolutely killed everybody in the Members Lounge to watch the pros kill the course for the first two days.  By the time the weather changed and the USGA started hanging flags in bunkers, everybody's opinion on the course had already been implanted and most of the members never "recovered".  The fact that only three players broke par for the week is pretty much lost in the fog of memory.

[Jason Walker]

OT on this wonderful thread, but I may start a petition to get Kelly Tilghman removed from not only the Golf Channel, but anywhere on television sans for the occasional infomercial for Kevin Trudeau.

Great idea, but unfortunately Mr Trudeau is not available at this moment...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-03-17/business/chi-kevin-trudeau-sentenced-20140317_1_kevin-trudeau-global-information-network-guzman

Kelly is awful though.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Below are the course ratings for Prairie Dunes

White (~6200 yd) --   Old: 71.2/134   New: 72.3/141
Blue    (~6500 yd) --   Old: 73.6/141   New: 74.1/144
Gold    (~6900 yd) --   Old: 74.7/144   New: 75.5/148

A problem with golfers is that they want their course to defend par against the better/best players,
but, they want to use hi-tech I&B to score lower with their games.

You can't have it both ways.

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

I was Grounds Chairman at Olympia for the '03 Open and everybody is still lamenting the first two days' weather AND the USGA's decision to cut the rough to 3 1/2 inches.  It absolutely killed everybody in the Members Lounge to watch the pros kill the course for the first two days.  By the time the weather changed and the USGA started hanging flags in bunkers, everybody's opinion on the course had already been implanted and most of the members never "recovered".  The fact that only three players broke par for the week is pretty much lost in the fog of memory.

Of course it is. And it will be forgotten that -6 won this week.

Myself, I would have liked to just see the normal 15 MPH south wind, with maybe 1 day with a similar wind from the north. I would not like to see what I have had for wind this past weekend the last 2 years when it blew 25-30 mph.  That isn't good for anybody.

[Dan Herrmann]

I absolutely love this great course and fine golf!

[Chris Cupit]

This is why it's pointless trying to have a discussion with Pat Mucci.

Ahh yes, pointless because your position gets rendered useless.
I feel your pain.

Chris, who knows the topic inside-out, says "all the fairways were at least 35-40 yards wide", to which Mucci responds "since when is 30 yards in the dz plenty wide?".

Did it ever occur to your dim witted moronic brain that maybe, just maybe, Chris's measurements might be flawed or off by a few yards ?
What then my dim witted friend ?

It's even more tiresome than hoary old lines about Ford models, barbecue charcoal and ATVs in the Hamptons.

No one is holding and gun to your head and forcing you to read any of my posts.
I happen to like the charcoal briquette story about Maidstone and I love riding ATV's and I never tire of Ford models or any other Agency's models.
But, mayber you're more of a guy who likes guys. 
I can't please everyone and I certainly wouldn't make the effort to please you.

Have you ever played Prairie Dunes ?

My measurements absolutely could have been off and so I texted one of the officials today and asked him to ask the other officials of their best estimate of fairway widths and he even half stepped a few mentioned in this thread.  Of the five remaining officials including the head official who set up the course it was unanimous at 30-40 yards with some portions much wider and a few (more wider than narrower) like 3 and 17 narrower.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott Warren,

So the fairways were measured at 30-40 Yards.

And what was the question I asked ?

"Since when is 30 yards plenty wide ?"

So who was right Scott, you dim witted moron.

Now the question remains, how do the current narrowed fairways compare to the Pre-2006 Sr Open fairways and why wouldn't you return the current fairways to their Pre-2006 widths ?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Now the question remains, how do the current narrowed fairways compare to the Pre-2006 Sr Open fairways and why wouldn't you return the current fairways to their Pre-2006 widths ?

Could be the members have no issue with the setup as is.  It plays wide as stated above.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Now the question remains, how do the current narrowed fairways compare to the Pre-2006 Sr Open fairways and why wouldn't you return the current fairways to their Pre-2006 widths ?

Could be the members have no issue with the setup as is.  It plays wide as stated above.

Have you ever played  it ?

How do 30 yard wide fairways in the DZ play wide ?

You'd have to be a moron to declare that fairways 30 yards in the DZ, play wide, especially when you see the gunch flanking them. 

[Sean Leary]

Pat have you been back since 1988? Why won't you consider the possibility that rough may in fact be helpful for many of the members. Think about holes 1, 3, 8, 16, 17 and 18 and all the tee shots that can be saved from the gunsch by the rough. Trust me, it does.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Now the question remains, how do the current narrowed fairways compare to the Pre-2006 Sr Open fairways and why wouldn't you return the current fairways to their Pre-2006 widths ?

Could be the members have no issue with the setup as is.  It plays wide as stated above.

Have you ever played  it ?

How do 30 yard wide fairways in the DZ play wide ?

You'd have to be a moron to declare that fairways 30 yards in the DZ, play wide, especially when you see the gunch flanking them. 

I've probably gone around a couple hundred times at Prairie Dunes.  30-45 yards are more than wide enough for my eye.  It seems that I could just be mentally tougher than you at your advanced age.

[mike_beene]

You can't know a course with only a hundred to two hundred plays. (You have gotten the most out of that membership!)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat have you been back since 1988? Why won't you consider the possibility that rough may in fact be helpful for many of the members. Think about holes 1, 3, 8, 16, 17 and 18 and all the tee shots that can be saved from the gunsch by the rough. Trust me, it does.

So you're stating that Pre-2006 Sr Open, the rough, as it was then configured, didn't save any balls from going into the gunsch ?

But now that the rough has been expanded inward, toward the center of the fairway, more balls, balls hit closer to that centerline, are saved from going into the gunsch ?  ?  ?

Is that right ? ?  ?

You'll have a hard time convincing me that when a fairway is 40 yards wide, and it's narrowed down to 30 yards wide, how that 5 yards of new rough, closer to the centerline of the fairway, saves balls from going into the rough.

Don't take this the wrong way but are you guys blind to the physical facts ?

Put in logical terms, you're all morons, blindly defending a course that enjoys "MFNS"

If the rough between the fairway and gunsch is ten yards in width and you move the rough closer to the centerline of the fairway by expanding the rough five (5) yards closer to the center of the fairway, do you really believe that reconfiguring the rough such that it now extends another five yards closer to the centerline of the fairway is going to stop more balls from going into the rough ?

You'd have to be a colossal moron to believe that.

You guys must have flunked math 101........... or maybe it was geometry 101 or logic 101

Or maybe all three.

So, let's go back to the question I keep on asking that no one has answered.

Why would you defend the current width of the fairways versus the Pre 2006 Sr Open widths of the fairways ?

MORONS NEED NOT REPLY

[Patrick_Mucci]

Now the question remains, how do the current narrowed fairways compare to the Pre-2006 Sr Open fairways and why wouldn't you return the current fairways to their Pre-2006 widths ?

Could be the members have no issue with the setup as is.  It plays wide as stated above.

Have you ever played  it ?

How do 30 yard wide fairways in the DZ play wide ?

You'd have to be a moron to declare that fairways 30 yards in the DZ, play wide, especially when you see the gunch flanking them. 

I've probably gone around a couple hundred times at Prairie Dunes.  30-45 yards are more than wide enough for my eye.  

It seems that I could just be mentally tougher than you at your advanced age.

You can be absolutely assured that you're not mentally tougher than me, on or off the golf course.

When you say, "gone around" does that mean that you were lost and couldn't find the course or that you actually have played it "a couple hundred times".  There is a difference and I'm just trying to clarify that difference.

[JC Urbina]

PD has been in my top five golf courses in the U.S since my days working for the Dye Family. My first visit coincided with a trip to Firethorn golf club a Pete Dye design and  Dick Youngscap owned facility.  I would go from Denver to Firethorn and then circle  back around through Hutchison to walk and play  PD.  I was just learning how to play golf but knew this was a place that was as close to the look of sand dunes and golf as I had seen, at least since my first visit to Scotland. I believe that Dick made a call for me the first time I made a visit to PD.

I have written in my interviews with GCA the reasons for my love affair with this course.  I patterned  a lot of my green shapes over my years of shaping greens and count  this Maxwell gem a must for all who enjoy the simpler land forms of dunes golf. The best sand course don't need thirty foot towering dunes to be good.

Small inside rolls that you saw gave some of the best ball strikers fits today.    The rolling fairways and interesting greens more then make up for the length of the holes. In fact I wish they would have shown more of the 6-9 loop with the 7th green being my favorite. A classic on the ground green with very interesting Maxwell rolls.

Watching it on TV this afternoon brought back many memories, I need to get back out there soon..  You can discuss the fairway widths all you want. The true character of this course is the greens and the landforms they are attached to.

I need to get a note off to Golf channel for including this in the line up.  It was well worth it, now back to the regular tour stops.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I think the first hint that you're in for something special is when you're driving to the club on flat roads and in the distance you see the changed landform.

[Scott Warren]

Pat,

The fact that you first response to me bypassed on-topic debate for calling me a homosexual speaks volumes.

I also noticed your voice kinda faded away after KK responded to your old favourite "have you even played it?".

There's plenty of room by and large from gunch to gunch and the light rough makes that effectively wide than were it all fairway. Where there could be more room is on a very short four and a short five, so I can live with that.

The terrain, greens and conditioning are as good as it gets in golf and the wind makes all of that even more fun. I visited Prairie Dunes on a six-day roadtrip in 2012 with Sand Hills and Ballyneal and were I forced to choose only one to visit again it would be PD. Splitting 15 rounds I'd take 6 at PD, 5 at SH & 4 at BN.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The fact that you first response to me bypassed on-topic debate for calling me a homosexual speaks volumes.

I didn't call you anything, I merely theorized that you might prefer stories about guys given your stated distaste for stories about Ford models.  

I also noticed your voice kinda faded away after KK responded to your old favourite "have you even played it?".

Then you're delusional, in addition to being a dim witted moron.
I responded to his comment less than 3 hours after he made it.
Is that "fading away" ?
Evidently, you can't tell time.
You should have noticed that KK has yet to respond to my query as to whether his use of the term "gone around" is equivalent to the term "has played", and it's been more than 3 hours in case you hadn't noticed

There's plenty of room by and large from gunch to gunch and the light rough makes that effectively wide than were it all fairway.
No one, repeat, no one ever remotely suggested that the area between the flanking gunsch should be all fairway.
Only a dim witted moron would attempt to misrepresent the discussion to that extent to serve his own agenda.

The fairways have been narrowed.
That's a fact that even a dim witted moron should be able to understand.
And, that narrowing occurred by increasing the area of rough closer to the fairway centerline, not away from it

Where there could be more room is on a very short four and a short five, so I can live with that.

It's nice of you to now admit that the narrow fairways should be widened.
I believe I stated same earlier, but you took exception to it.
What changed your mind ?
Facts and logic ?

I also stated that some of the fairways were only 30 yards wide and you told me that I was wrong and that another party knew more than I did about the fairway widths.
But then, that party had the officials on site actually measure the fairway width.
And those measurements revealed that some of the fairways were 30 yards wide.
So I was right and you were wrong.

But the real issue isn't your ignorance regarding the fairway widths.

It's that you, without any facts regarding fairway width at your disposal, declared that a third party was right and that I was wrong.

It's that YOU chose to personalize this by declaring:

[This is why it's pointless trying to have a discussion with Pat Mucci. [/i]

Well it it isn't pointless to have a discussion with me, it's educational, especially for dim witted morons who don't know what they're talking about, such as yourself.

So The next time you want to personalize this and make snide remarks, get your facts right you dim witted moron
[/color]

The terrain, greens and conditioning are as good as it gets in golf and the wind makes all of that even more fun. I visited Prairie Dunes on a six-day roadtrip in 2012 with Sand Hills and Ballyneal and were I forced to choose only one to visit again it would be PD. Splitting 15 rounds I'd take 6 at PD, 5 at SH & 4 at BN.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of fairway width Pre and Post the 2006 Sr Open

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Now the question remains, how do the current narrowed fairways compare to the Pre-2006 Sr Open fairways and why wouldn't you return the current fairways to their Pre-2006 widths ?

Could be the members have no issue with the setup as is.  It plays wide as stated above.

Have you ever played  it ?

How do 30 yard wide fairways in the DZ play wide ?

You'd have to be a moron to declare that fairways 30 yards in the DZ, play wide, especially when you see the gunch flanking them. 

I've probably gone around a couple hundred times at Prairie Dunes.  30-45 yards are more than wide enough for my eye.  

It seems that I could just be mentally tougher than you at your advanced age.

You can be absolutely assured that you're not mentally tougher than me, on or off the golf course.

When you say, "gone around" does that mean that you were lost and couldn't find the course or that you actually have played it "a couple hundred times".  There is a difference and I'm just trying to clarify that difference.

I've played Prairie Dunes more this year than you have in your life.

It's sad watching such a narcissist fall apart.  I used to wonder how the crew of the Titanic felt as they drowned.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've probably gone around a couple hundred times at Prairie Dunes.  30-45 yards are more than wide enough for my eye.  

It seems that I could just be mentally tougher than you at your advanced age.

You can be absolutely assured that you're not mentally tougher than me, on or off the golf course.

When you say, "gone around" does that mean that you were lost and couldn't find the course or that you actually have played it "a couple hundred times".  There is a difference and I'm just trying to clarify that difference.

[/quote]

I've played Prairie Dunes more this year than you have in your life.

Maybe, maybe not.
How many times have you played it this year ?

So, to be clear, it's your opinion that fairways 30 yards wide are "more than wide enough..."
Is that correct ?
Because that's what you stated.


It's sad watching such a narcissist fall apart.

"Fall apart" as in failure to answer specific questions.

Why have you, with your extensive knowledge and play of PD, not addressed the issue of Pre and Post 2006 fairway widths ?

In what year did you first play PD ?

I used to wonder how the crew of the Titanic felt as they drowned.

Cold

But don't ever kid yourself or anyone else into thinking that you're mentally tougher, on and off the golf course.

Forgot to ask, what's your handicap ?
[/quote]

[Patrick_Mucci]

When you examine the issue of fairway width in the context of the table below, and compare that table with a similar table dated 2004, what might that tell you.

Morons need not tax themselves by trying to think and answer the question posed.

Below are the course ratings for Prairie Dunes

White (~6200 yd) --   Old: 71.2/134   New: 72.3/141
Blue    (~6500 yd) --   Old: 73.6/141   New: 74.1/144
Gold    (~6900 yd) --   Old: 74.7/144   New: 75.5/148

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I've played Prairie Dunes more this year than you have in your life.

Maybe, maybe not.
How many times have you played it this year ?

So, to be clear, it's your opinion that fairways 30 yards wide are "more than wide enough..."
Is that correct ?
Because that's what you stated.


It's sad watching such a narcissist fall apart.

"Fall apart" as in failure to answer specific questions.

Why have you, with your extensive knowledge and play of PD, not addressed the issue of Pre and Post 2006 fairway widths ?

In what year did you first play PD ?

I used to wonder how the crew of the Titanic felt as they drowned.

Cold

But don't ever kid yourself or anyone else into thinking that you're mentally tougher, on and off the golf course.

Forgot to ask, what's your handicap ?

Yes - I do believe 30 yards would be wide enough.  Every fairway at Prairie Dunes is wider than that, but I don't see any reason to narrow them further.  As it is set up now, there is plenty of room to drive the ball and the angles are there.  Do you feel that Pine Tree is too narrow from the tee?  How about Garden City?

When is the last time that you played Prairie Dunes?  With your current handicap we could have a good match.  I'm sure a man as mentally tough as you are doesn't give strokes.  I do worry that you couldn't keep up.  I'd likely be waving while heading down the third fairway as you continue to search for a place where you could step off the fairway width of the first in 30 paces.

[Mac Plumart]

Pat...

Do what you want, you are a big boy.

But it is my opinion that you are way out of line.  You can question members of the course who've played there many times over, but in all honesty they have way more knowledge of the course than anyone on this forum.  You can question the rules official who was actually on-site for this tournament, but, again, he has way more knowledge of the course set up then any of us have on this forum.  HOWEVER, to make comments about someone's sexuality and sexual preferences is WAY out of line.  I believe a kudos goes out to Scott Warren for showing restraint in his responses to your over the top comments.

You can respond in whatever way you want to me, but to be clear this is my last post of this thread...regardless of what you say.  This was a really cool thread about the championship and Prairie Dunes with lots of people with first hand knowledge and now it is being dragged into meaningless banter and non-sense.

[JMEvensky]

And to throw a little fuel on the fire...

I spoke with a kid who played in the NCAA. He didn't think  PD was particularly narrow--he loved everything about the golf course. But I'd guess he's a better player than a very high percentage of the members.