[Paul Gray]

Minimalist Era now. Post Minimalist at some point.

Is that an opinion or a wish? 

[Matthew Essig]

Can someone clue me in about what kind of characteristics divide Modern and Postmodern?

I believe that we are in a Minimalist Age or Renaissance. I think it started in the mid to late 1990's with examples being Tobacco Road, Bandon, Sand Hills, etc.

I also believe that there will be a Postminimalist era. Minimalism will be around a couple more decades, but the sandy rugged areas in the corners of the globe (US, Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc.) are being used up. So, I think that postminimalism will be applying minimalist design to less dramatic sites.

--------------------------------------

My projected timeline (working off the current one):

-FOLK ERA … beginning of golf - mid 1800s

-CRAFTSMAN ERA and INLAND AND GLOBALIZATION ERA … mid 1800s to early 1900s

-GOLDEN AGE … early 1900s - 1934

-MODERN AGE … 1934 - 1970s

-POSTMODERN ERA … 1970s - late 1990s/around 2000

-MINIMALIST (RENAISSANCE) ERA ... Late 1990's/around 2000 - probably about 2035

-POSTMINIMALIST ERA ... 2035ish and beyond

[Grant Saunders]

I feel we are in the:

- Easy access to information that is often taken out of context era

So much opinion and information exists now at the touch of a button that it is much easier for people to judge and form opinions (and discard them) based on photos, reviews, what some guy wrote on a golf architecture blog, etc. There is much less effort to actually see ideas in person and view them as part of a whole or as a product of a philosophy.

As an example, frilly edged bunkers seem to be the must have accessory for courses these days. There has become a bit of a fixation (hugely prevalent on GCA) and now courses appear to be adopting this style in an effort to make them somehow more natural or minimalist. Never mind the big smoothly contoured fairways and other features, we are somehow supposed to suspend belief and accept that suddenly this clearly manufactured landscape now gels beautifully with its surroundings and the hand of man is no longer discernible.

What is missing in this scenario is the context in which those type of bunkers actually exist.

As with any era, there is some genuinely great stuff being done, but there is also a lot of work happening that misses the mark in terms of it being a result of following a trend.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Minimalist Era now. Post Minimalist at some point.

Is that an opinion or a wish? 

Opinion bordering on certainty.  Given no era has lasted forever, and there is always a "post X" era.  I know some here think minimalism is so great it will last forever, but history suggests otherwise.

As to what that will be, the most dire predictions are the "last era" of golf course design, as water shortages, enviro regulations, etc. either stop golf or limit new courses to landfills, quarries, and other degraded sites.

It would probably be more accurate to call it the "super minimalist" era, in which new courses must be designed for zero irrigation and chemical inputs.  No doubt it will continue to get more difficult, but gca creativity will carry the day. Some just feel it will take all the creativity one can must just to find a site and get a project permitted......

[Paul Gray]

Minimalist Era now. Post Minimalist at some point.

Is that an opinion or a wish?  

Opinion bordering on certainty.  Given no era has lasted forever, and there is always a "post X" era.  I know some here think minimalism is so great it will last forever, but history suggests otherwise.

As to what that will be, the most dire predictions are the "last era" of golf course design, as water shortages, enviro regulations, etc. either stop golf or limit new courses to landfills, quarries, and other degraded sites.

It would probably be more accurate to call it the "super minimalist" era, in which new courses must be designed for zero irrigation and chemical inputs.  No doubt it will continue to get more difficult, but gca creativity will carry the day. Some just feel it will take all the creativity one can must just to find a site and get a project permitted......

Heaven forbid that we have to suffer such inferior courses as Streamsong or The Addington!

I do however see your point. A new wave could indeed be born out of limitations. Necessity is the mother of all invention etc.

[Randy Thompson]

I feel we are in the:

- Easy access to information that is often taken out of context era

So much opinion and information exists now at the touch of a button that it is much easier for people to judge and form opinions (and discard them) based on photos, reviews, what some guy wrote on a golf architecture blog, etc. There is much less effort to actually see ideas in person and view them as part of a whole or as a product of a philosophy.

As an example, frilly edged bunkers seem to be the must have accessory for courses these days. There has become a bit of a fixation (hugely prevalent on GCA) and now courses appear to be adopting this style in an effort to make them somehow more natural or minimalist. Never mind the big smoothly contoured fairways and other features, we are somehow supposed to suspend belief and accept that suddenly this clearly manufactured landscape now gels beautifully with its surroundings and the hand of man is no longer discernible.

What is missing in this scenario is the context in which those type of bunkers actually exist.

As with any era, there is some genuinely great stuff being done, but there is also a lot of work happening that misses the mark in terms of it being a result of following a trend.

Grant,
Congrats, well said, you hit the nail on the head. I agree with what your saying but If tomorrow I have a client that want frilly edges in a park setting for example, I would do everything posible to educate him or them with your same arguments but in the end if thats what they want I can not afford to step aside and allow them to hire someone else that will give them what they want. The current market no longer allows us to pick and choose base on what is right and compromises have to be made.

[Paul Gray]

Grant,

Absolutely.

I suggested some time ago that putting heather on the back of a bunker was very pretty but didn't ultimately have any relevance to design. Despite being roundly booed, the point I was making was that copying a look doesn't mean you understand its content. Parrots can talk but have no idea what they're saying.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Grant, I agree on the context issue.  I had heard an LA course, once on a dunes site, but now urban, considered going back to their original look.  Should they, now that the perimeter views have changed?  Members have been used to turf/lawn panel for over 50 years, with nothing but photos of the original course style?  Tough question, especially if all that dunes sand is soiling neighbors curtains or causing accidents while blowing across the bordering freeway......

Ditto with frilly bunkers among, say a housing course.  Nice manicured lawns and a few spots of rough edges?  Does it fit the landscape?  Ditto for native areas we are forced to use now. I have seen 40 yards of fw, 40 yards of long grass, and then 10 yards of backyard turf.  It can be out of character.

The other question of those frilly bunkers is still playability and maybe maintainability. Good players will question why they miss the green by a foot and lost a ball, while a miss by 10 feet has a perfectly manicured bunker edge.  And, to the degree that those frilly edges in otherwise manicured turf cost more to maintain that many mid priced courses want to spend, I figure they will disappear faster than my brother in law when it comes time to pay a check......

[RJ_Daley]

I don't think there is any word to describe the 'style' of the era we are in, or about to enter.  We are in something of an eclectic era of style.  Minimalism is a false moniker, IMHO.  Some minimalism is within the current context of newer designs as Grant seem to use the word 'context'.   But, design styles are all over the spectrum, IMHO.  

The current era or coming era needs to be defined more in economic development terms.  I think we might call the last decade the weeding out era, where there was shrinking work projects.  We may be still in a conserving era where we are conserving or remodeling courses to meet the survival needs in economic operational terms, for existing courses to continue operations.  We may be just leaving the 'renaissance era' of some designers getting back to the original design concepts of laying upon the existing ground as naturally as possible (not necessarily in a minimal way scope of construction wise).  

But, if we are trending to an era, I'd call it a post-American modern, and emerging-global era, where styles will be from outrageously lavish with huge sums spent to design showcase courses by foreign moguls and oligarchs, and also really great architects employed by international developers with a mission and sense to create great golf by hiring great archies.   But, their style won't indicate an era of any particular design genre.  IMHO.  

[Tom_Doak]

The Renaissance.  Unfortunately someone had the foresight to use the name of the era for their design company.

I named the company that so they would have to call this era The Doak Era 

I was doing an interview here in Bordeaux today and I said I believed 100% that there would be another, different era, once the current fashion was copied by too many other designers ... and it is certainly going in that direction.  We will see whether the new leader is someone from the outside, or someone that trained under one of us minimalists.  Don't forget that Bill Coore and I trained under the leader of the last era.

I am tired of hearing about the "frilly bunkers".  Minimalism has nothing to do with the bunker style.  We've done multiple courses without frilly bunkers ... but most of those have not gotten the same attention in the press, because they are not as photogenic.  Perhaps you should call this era the JPEG Era.

[Thomas Dai]

Perhaps you should call this era the JPEG Era.

Great line Tom. Very apt.

atb

[Randy Thompson]

Tom,
I know Bill Coore was the superintendent at Waterwood in Huntsvile, Texas in the 80īs and an individual that worked for me replaced him when he left. Was that the extent of his training under Pete or did he actually work in construction under Pete in that projects or other projects that would be more cosidered, "trained under"!

[John Kirk]

...not quite appropriate, and eliminated.

[Randy Thompson]

If you just landed from Mars and began touring plant earths golf courses any chance that when you toured Pine Valley you might mistakingly think that it is from our present era? What other older courses might also produce this kind of misperception?

[BCrosby]

The closest parallel with the current era is the fifteen years or so beginning with the Great Depression and ending on VJ Day in 1945.

Then as now, few courses were built. There wasn't enough activity to give the era a name. Same today. For the last five years - with some exceptions - golf architecture has been in a holding pattern.

Activity will pick up someday. But I'm having trouble seeing signs of it so far. This nothingburger era might go on for a while.

Bob

 

[Brent Hutto]

Bob,

At least here in USA you nailed it. Maybe the two eras you described could be labeled Staying Alive (1930-1945) and Staying Alive II (2007-20??).

If not "Staying Alive" then maybe "Hold On To What You've Got".

[Jeff_Brauer]

Or, "Don't Stop Believing" the DSB era, better than the DBS (deep BS)

[RJ_Daley]

TD, "the JPEG era"!!!  That is brilliant!  It suggests many layers of meaning about GCA and how we interpret it with mountains of digital photos, that was not possible to easily share examples of what we like and what we identify which presentation of design we find to be excellent, not even 25 years ago.  Now, someone experiences a new or remodelled or restored course, and we photo bomb it and the visualization of what we find great is more easily understood and shared.  Perhaps JPEGS add to the other posters thoughts of an era of 'staying alive' because we can have more shared examples of what folks are talking about when they like something, thus keep the buzz going.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
I know Bill Coore was the superintendent at Waterwood in Huntsvile, Texas in the 80īs and an individual that worked for me replaced him when he left. Was that the extent of his training under Pete or did he actually work in construction under Pete in that projects or other projects that would be more cosidered, "trained under"!

Randy:

I believe Bill worked on three or four projects for the Dyes -- Johns Island was one, then a course in Montreal that Roy Dye did, and then Waterwood National that I know of.  When the recession came in the late 70's, Dick Psolla suggested to Bill that he stay on at Waterwood and learn that side of the business and that it would be of benefit to him.

I only remember the Montreal assignment because of a great story Bill told us about coming back across the border.  He had traded cars with P.B. Dye, and when he brought P.B.'s car back into the U.S., the border patrol's drug-sniffer dog jumped into the car and sat down in the passenger seat next to him.    He said it was a very long day of searching before they let him back in.

[Sean_A]

I don't know what it will be called, but the idea of minimalism has only had its surface scratched.  That concept can be dialled down much further and I am hoping some brave archies take on the task.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I don't know what it will be called, but the idea of minimalism has only had its surface scratched.  That concept can be dialled down much further and I am hoping some brave archies take on the task.

Sean:

I agree with your point, except that the real question is, what developer will let the architect he has hired take on the task?  Most developers would be very afraid to take minimalism to the next level.

Just before we started Pacific Dunes, I gave a slide show to Mr. Keiser and the Kemper Sports people and their superintendents about links golf.  My slides just kept getting browner and browner, until finally I showed one of Brancaster after a drought so severe they had to stop mowing the fairways and just let them get fuzzy for a couple of weeks.  I was just trying to see how far I could go before they cried "Uncle!" and that was the slide that put them over the edge.  I can't see any course in America getting to that level unless they are broke.  Ballyneal is the closest I have seen.

[Grant Saunders]

I feel we are in the:

- Easy access to information that is often taken out of context era

So much opinion and information exists now at the touch of a button that it is much easier for people to judge and form opinions (and discard them) based on photos, reviews, what some guy wrote on a golf architecture blog, etc. There is much less effort to actually see ideas in person and view them as part of a whole or as a product of a philosophy.

As an example, frilly edged bunkers seem to be the must have accessory for courses these days. There has become a bit of a fixation (hugely prevalent on GCA) and now courses appear to be adopting this style in an effort to make them somehow more natural or minimalist. Never mind the big smoothly contoured fairways and other features, we are somehow supposed to suspend belief and accept that suddenly this clearly manufactured landscape now gels beautifully with its surroundings and the hand of man is no longer discernible.

What is missing in this scenario is the context in which those type of bunkers actually exist.

As with any era, there is some genuinely great stuff being done, but there is also a lot of work happening that misses the mark in terms of it being a result of following a trend.

Grant,
Congrats, well said, you hit the nail on the head. I agree with what your saying but If tomorrow I have a client that want frilly edges in a park setting for example, I would do everything posible to educate him or them with your same arguments but in the end if thats what they want I can not afford to step aside and allow them to hire someone else that will give them what they want. The current market no longer allows us to pick and choose base on what is right and compromises have to be made.

Hi Randy

I fully appreciate where you are coming from. You can only do so much to try and convince someone to view things differently but at some point you realise that their mind is set.

I would suggest that this era is also more about copying or emulating a style more than any other era. To me, this is the wrong approach and it is the philosophy that should be the driving force. I feel that many are unable to appreciate that the style they are so enamoured with is actually a by-product of a philosophy. At least the bulk production of the long hard courses of the 80's and 90's was about following a philosophy that courses need to be tougher. It is up for debate whether it was the right mindset but they were buying into an ideal as opposed to doing it because it looked cool.

The minimalist approach can be applied to any site but it will yield vastly differing products in terms of looks and playing characteristics. It is then all about the site to begin with and it dictates the result. You could build a minimalist course on a dead flat piece of ground and it would result in a dead flat course. I suspect it would not be well received (especially on here) but it would be true to the minimalist approach.

It seems minimalism is being sold more as a style than as a philosophy.

[paul cowley]

I'm thinking the current era could be called the 'Post Modern/Neo Golden Age/New Renaissance Era'

Most all of the people making any design money today could probably fit under that tent...well maybe.

[Tom_Doak]

It seems minimalism is being sold more as a style than as a philosophy.

I agree with this statement, although not so much with your example of a flat site.  If the flat site doesn't drain properly, you can't leave it flat, although usually we move more earth than strictly necessary to fix the problem.

Otherwise, you are right, everything from bunkers onward should follow from the site and the local soils, instead of mimicking a particular style.

[Sean_A]

I don't know what it will be called, but the idea of minimalism has only had its surface scratched.  That concept can be dialled down much further and I am hoping some brave archies take on the task.

Sean:

I agree with your point, except that the real question is, what developer will let the architect he has hired take on the task?  Most developers would be very afraid to take minimalism to the next level.

Just before we started Pacific Dunes, I gave a slide show to Mr. Keiser and the Kemper Sports people and their superintendents about links golf.  My slides just kept getting browner and browner, until finally I showed one of Brancaster after a drought so severe they had to stop mowing the fairways and just let them get fuzzy for a couple of weeks.  I was just trying to see how far I could go before they cried "Uncle!" and that was the slide that put them over the edge.  I can't see any course in America getting to that level unless they are broke.  Ballyneal is the closest I have seen.

No question Tom, I am not sure there is a real market for dialled down minimalism at least one that will make a developer any money.  The market will have to be created and that isn't going to happen unless a Kaiser gets behind a handful of such projects.  BTW - I am talking more dialled down than Ballyneal in the treatment of hazards, less is more and more is in the centre of the park.  I am thinking of design concepts which can be imported anywhere just as we see for all parkland courses - same essential stuff - different setting.  The concept would seem daring, but in essence be concpetually dead simple.  Thinking on it, it wouldn't be minimalism if minimalism means mimicing nature. 

Ciao

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