[Gib_Papazian]

Augusta National. I'm happy to one day (maybe) go wander around during a Masters practice round - but only if the hassle factor is
near zero. My one overnight at Augusta (with Will Ellender and Stettner) cured me. The town is a shit hole - and what looked like a
reasonably nice hotel turned out to be a glorified fuck palace (turning the same rooms on our floor over several times during the
night) for every black teenager within fifty miles.

The other thing is I've got at least 20 well-traveled friends from various parts of the country who have played Augusta - and even stayed there. I trust their opinions implicitly and NOT ONE of them puts the golf course (not "the experience") at the top of their list. The response is usually "Top 5," but there are evidently as many world class holes (putting history aside) as comparatively ordinary ones.

I've never had a single person tell me Augusta is BETTER than PV, NGLA or Cypress Point - or really even as good. Years ago I had the opportunity to go stay there a couple days, but it conflicted with a business trip to the Northeast when Shinnecock Hills was on the agenda, so it was an easy decision - at least for me.

I'd much rather endure a pain-in-the-ass planes, trains and automobiles adventure if the destination is Sand Hills, Ballyneal or Dismal River over Augusta. It might be an interesting exercise to list the courses you'd rather play that Augusta if time and distance were not a factor. I'd choose Royal Melbourne for starters.      

[AKikuchi]

1. Bethpage Black - Loved the place before the renovation. It is the ultimate in Yogism, "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

This thread is a painful reminder of just how hard it can be to get in consistent golf as a younger guy living in nyc, where every round takes an unusual amount of effort. I tend to agree with you here, but the crazy thing is that for someone in the city with no car (although I’m considering changing that, for just this reason), Bethpage is often the easiest/only place to play. In particular if you’re willing to go out as a single on a weekday... It’s still a full day affair though- I caught the 7:39 out of penn station yesterday and was back around 6pm. The weather was great, and I was paired with some good guys, but I didn’t have time for a drink after the round.

Compared to the time and effort required to get a decent number of rounds in around nyc, travel golf starts looking much more manageable. Just one of the major tradeoffs that comes with living here.

-Alan

[Gib_Papazian]

AKikuchi ,

Maybe you ought to try Pelham Bay. A person with impeccable taste told me the putting surfaces are extremely interesting. 

[Terry Lavin]

Gib:  I wrote, and then decided not to post almost the exact same comment last night, sans the comment about the town being a dump.  I really don't care to play there.   It's just fine as a TV event for me;  I'd much rather go to Nebraska.   

This also sums up my feelings about Muirfield Village. 

[AKikuchi]

Gib: I had heard some good things about Pelham Bay, but now I will certainly make a trip out there. The crazy thing is that even though it is within the city limits, it probably takes longer to get to than Bethpage.

[cary lichtenstein]

Augusta National. I'm happy to one day (maybe) go wander around during a Masters practice round - but only if the hassle factor is
near zero. My one overnight at Augusta (with Will Ellender and Stettner) cured me. The town is a shit hole - and what looked like a
reasonably nice hotel turned out to be a glorified fuck palace (turning the same rooms on our floor over several times during the
night) for every black teenager within fifty miles.

The other thing is I've got at least 20 well-traveled friends from various parts of the country who have played Augusta - and even stayed there. I trust their opinions implicitly and NOT ONE of them puts the golf course (not "the experience") at the top of their list. The response is usually "Top 5," but there are evidently as many world class holes (putting history aside) as comparatively ordinary ones.

I've never had a single person tell me Augusta is BETTER than PV, NGLA or Cypress Point - or really even as good. Years ago I had the opportunity to go stay there a couple days, but it conflicted with a business trip to the Northeast when Shinnecock Hills was on the agenda, so it was an easy decision - at least for me.

I'd much rather endure a pain-in-the-ass planes, trains and automobiles adventure if the destination is Sand Hills, Ballyneal or Dismal River over Augusta. It might be an interesting exercise to list the courses you'd rather play that Augusta if time and distance were not a factor. I'd choose Royal Melbourne for starters.      
[/q

R you dead serious or joking? Everyone would give their eye teeth to play Augusta? It was my 100 th course in my quest to play the top 100. I had been there for 6 tournaments, a total of about 12 days. Was it a disappointment? Sure! Was it as good as Pine Valley, no way. But just the opportunity to play it, compare your experience to that of the pro's, you now know all the holes, understand the piin placements, the wide of the fairways, you got to be kidding. A lot of bravo, but really?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gib,

I think you'd change your mind after a round or two at ANGC.

It's really a wonderful golf course.

No doubt that it's out of the way, but, in 1932, with the railroads, it was as easy or easier to get to than Florida.

I've never been keen on the numerical ordering system of rankings.

While I have a visceral affinity for NGLA, I could play ANGC every day and look forward to the next day's play.

For daily play, I would prefer ANGC to PV and I think PV is great.
But, at PV, you're only one swing away from an X, and that can put a damper on your round.
Whereas, taking X's isn't usually on the menu at ANGC.

Shinnecock, CPC, NGLA, ANGC and PV are all world class courses and you can't go wrong at any of them.

I think your reaction to ANGC may be like some of the reactions to "The Donald's" hair, more rooted in emotion than interaction.

If you get invited to ANGC, don't pass it up, you won't be sorry, and you'll thank me for encouraging you.
It's really quite special and will quickly ascend to the top portion of your totem pole.

[Bill Vogeney]

1. Medinah
2. Kohler
3. Muirfield Village
4. Prairie Dunes
5. Pebble Beach

Medinah is soooo not how I want to spend my time in Chicago.

Kohler, hey my wife doesn't play.

Muirfield, like it's a three hour drive from my house.

Prairie Dunes is in a town best known for juco championships and my kids were either too smart or too slow to go juco.

Pebble, I don't own a camera.

John, seeing that I am a national member at Prairie Dunes, I would really argue against that pick. If I only had to play that curse the rest if my life, I would be happy. There are a lot of great courses I would love to play...but the effort to get on them, I comparison to playing Prairie and it's very welcoming atmosphere, isn't worth it.

I have played MV, and I would agree with that assessment. Not a big Nicklaus fan, though I enjoy Castle Pines.

Every golf fanatic should play Pebble at some point in time.

A friend of mine once said "I wouldn't wish Medinah on my worst enemy"

I would put any old Classic course that the Jones boys have toughened up for a US Open on that list

[BHoover]

I can think of many courses I'd skip in order to play MVGC. The only reason I can think of for the hatred (if that's the right word ) is that it's a Nicklaus course. As an earlier poster wrote, yes it's a hard course, but does that mean you also dislike PV or Oakmont or Shinnecock? Just because it's Nicklaus does not make it unworthy of playing.

As for another comment about it having too many trees, I disagree. There are a couple holes where's trees come into play (I'm thinking of 11 and 15) but that's about it. There are trees, sure, but for the most part they don't come into play.

It's not my favorite course but it's definitely not one that I'd make an effort to avoid.

[Andy Troeger]

Muirfield Village appears on several people's lists.  I know it has been discussed before, but I was hoping some folks that cited it could explain their own reasoning.  I have walked the course many times for the Memorial, but never played it, and it is actually quite high on my list of courses I would like to play.  I am far from a great player, but it still looks like it could be quite fun.

I don't get it either. It should be quite high on your wish list. I played it a few years ago and it is a very good golf course. The residential component and a few too many water hazards push it down a little bit, but MVGC is clearly superior IMO to Double Eagle, Scioto, and Scarlet in the Columbus area and probably a top 50 course nationwide, if not better.

[Rees Milikin]

The town is a shit hole - and what looked like a
reasonably nice hotel turned out to be a glorified fuck palace (turning the same rooms on our floor over several times during the
night) for every black teenager within fifty miles.  

This is the dumbest shit I have ever read on GCA.

[Gib_Papazian]

Cary,

You just admitted it was a disappointment and no where near as fabulous as PV.

So, unless you're trying to get that final notch on your boot and willing to move heaven and earth to do it, why is it worth an insane amount of effort to play it? I'm not sure I'd be just as happy walking it once everybody is off the course after the Monday practice round.

Patrick,

I did not write I thought it sucked, just that I strongly suspect it is not worth groveling for like, say, Muirfield in Scotland. Don't get me wrong, I would be happy to go there and hang with you and I'm sure really like the course. But I am not sure it would live up to the hype, that's all.

Rees,

The city of Augusta sucks. Period. I'm sure you'd be a real box of chocolates being kept up all night by a revolving door of teen pregnancies in progress. You're about to supplant the current holder of the award for my very favorite idiot named Rees.      

[John Kavanaugh]

I can think of many courses I'd skip in order to play MVGC. The only reason I can think of for the hatred (if that's the right word ) is that it's a Nicklaus course. As an earlier poster wrote, yes it's a hard course, but does that mean you also dislike PV or Oakmont or Shinnecock? Just because it's Nicklaus does not make it unworthy of playing.

As for another comment about it having too many trees, I disagree. There are a couple holes where's trees come into play (I'm thinking of 11 and 15) but that's about it. There are trees, sure, but for the most part they don't come into play.

It's not my favorite course but it's definitely not one that I'd make an effort to avoid.

The Nicklaus excuse is old and tired.  I was the first person to mention Muirfield and the only thing preventing me from further crawling up Nicklaus's ass is all my buddies already having a party.

[BCowan]

Muirfield Village appears on several people's lists.  I know it has been discussed before, but I was hoping some folks that cited it could explain their own reasoning.  I have walked the course many times for the Memorial, but never played it, and it is actually quite high on my list of courses I would like to play.  I am far from a great player, but it still looks like it could be quite fun.

I don't get it either. It should be quite high on your wish list. I played it a few years ago and it is a very good golf course. The residential component and a few too many water hazards push it down a little bit, but MVGC is clearly superior IMO to Double Eagle, Scioto, and Scarlet in the Columbus area and probably a top 50 course nationwide, if not better.

That is crazy.  Scioto and Scarlet are way better!  Double Eagle isn't kept firm enough (way over watered) still a slightly better course than MV IMHO.  If MV is so great, why do they have to bull doze it so often??  

''As for another comment about it having too many trees, I disagree.''
#8 and #9, they had to cut down many trees on 8 years back.  Par 5 i think #15 is an arboretum.  

For those MV lovers, please tell us what makes the course great?

[John Kavanaugh]

Unless you attended Ohio State or plan on playing Big Ten golf, Scarlett is a world class piece of crap.  This list is the top five courses in the world you don't feel like making the effort to play.  It is reserved for great courses.  There are over 10,000 courses just in this country that I could play but are not worth the effort, top 5 is pretty special.  I personally don't include overseas because none of them are worth the effort for me.

[BCowan]

Unless you attended Ohio State or plan on playing Big Ten golf, Scarlett is a world class piece of crap.  

This coming from the guy who puts Prairie Dunes in the same light as Medinah and MV, you can't make this stuff up...

[John Kavanaugh]

Unless you attended Ohio State or plan on playing Big Ten golf, Scarlett is a world class piece of crap.  

This coming from the guy who puts Prairie Dunes in the same light as Medinah and MV, you can't make this stuff up...

I didn't choose to be born a Midwesterner but since I was those are three of the best we got.

[BCowan]

''I didn't choose to be born a Midwesterner but since I was those are three of the best we got.''
 

[BHoover]

That is crazy.  Scioto and Scarlet are way better!  Double Eagle isn't kept firm enough (way over watered) still a slightly better course than MV IMHO.  If MV is so great, why do they have to bull doze it so often??  

''As for another comment about it having too many trees, I disagree.''
#8 and #9, they had to cut down many trees on 8 years back.  Par 5 i think #15 is an arboretum.  

For those MV lovers, please tell us what makes the course great?

First, you misquouted me about the trees at MV.  I admited that holes 11 and 15 have trees, but those holes were designed to play through the trees.  I'll also be generous and concede that holes 8 and 9 have trees.  So tell me how 4 out of 18 holes with trees, none of which are particularly choked with trees, makes the course an arboretum?

If you choose to play Scarlet over MV, then there's nothing I can say to change your mind. I can only say that I would rather play MV over Scarlet because (a) MV is fun and (b) Scarlet is a brute.  I also think that the par 5s at MV are very good and the 18 is a great finishing hole.  It's not my favorite course in Ohio (those are up in NE Ohio -- Brookside, Kirtland and Canterbury), but that doesn't mean it;s not a great course.

As for Double Eagle, please tell me how you know about the maintenance practices there.  How should that course be maintained, please enlighten us.

Would you prefer this?

[Michael George]

Re: Scarlett, you cannot mention it in the same breadth as MVGC and Scioto.  It does not compare.  While I will defend Nicklaus, his work on Scarlett was not very good.  Just a mish - mash of design styles.  A lost opportunity to restore the course.  No Mackenzie left there.  

Re: MVGC, there is not a tree problem.  You can't make an argument for any current tree problems on the front 9.  Literally, watch next weekend, other than #3 and #5 (where the trees provide a strategic value), there is not even a tree in play anymore (8 is a par 3 for pete's sake and they got rid of the problem trees on 9).  The only holes where trees come into play on the back 9 are #11, #15 and #18.  The trees on #11 in play are short and right of the green, again providing strategic value to keep someone that bails out to the right on their drive from getting home in 2.  The trees on #18 are 2 trees that again are strategic.  BCowan, I will agree that there are some problem trees to the left of the driving area on #15.  The hole would be better if they allowed you to play from down in that huge swale without having a ton of trees around (it is just too tight of a driving hole for my liking).

One criticism that is legitimate of Nicklaus is his work on some other Columbus courses.  Jack walks on water in Columbus, as he should.  Just as Bob Jones walked on water in Atlanta.  What Jacks says is treated as gospel in Columbus and followed....period.  Unfortunately, it resulted in renovations to Scarlet and Scioto that should have been restorations.  When you have a Ross gem or a MacKenzie gem, you don't screw with it too much.  Jack's work on both courses (especially his greenside bunkering at Scioto) made them harder, but not better or more interesting.

John:  I understand that the "stop bashing Nicklaus argument" is occasionally used as a bail-out.  However, it is not in this case, when you are discussing MVGC.  If you don't like Nicklaus, you immediately cannot say anything complimentary about MVGC, as it is the 1 course that most defines him.   Or said another way, if you want to be critical of Nicklaus, you have to criticize MVGC.  The majority of people on this string who are bashing MVGC have never seen it.  I don't like every Nicklaus course that I have played, but I am not going to bash it based on perception.  I will criticize his work (as with Scioto and Scarlett) based on reality.  Except for the homes (which really does hurt the feel of MVGC), MVGC is the best Nicklaus course that I have played.  

  

[John Kavanaugh]

MVGC is the best Nicklaus course that I have played.  

No reason to get personal.

[BCowan]

 ''The majority of people on this string who are bashing MVGC have never seen it.''

played it 3 times, Scioto 15 times.  Scarlet haven't seen JN work, but from TV the tree removal on the back 9 looks great.  You have something against deep bunkers?  Bunkers are something that should be avoided!!!   

[Gib_Papazian]

Barny,

Did you just write that "NOTHING" overseas is worth the effort to play it?

Obviously, you've gone round the bend.

County Down is worth paddling across the Atlantic in a canoe and then crawling the rest of the way on your knees.

[BCowan]

''As for Double Eagle, please tell me how you know about the maintenance practices there.  How should that course be maintained, please enlighten us.''

    They water the native grass that is 100 yards out of play there, if that isn't an indication that they over water the course, I don't know what is.  The course plays way too soft, they love there green there!  
  
 ''those holes were designed to play through the trees''

Sorry, i just think that is weak Arch IMHO.  I very much dislike playing through arboretum's.  I like to take my dog to them though. 

[BHoover]

''As for Double Eagle, please tell me how you know about the maintenance practices there.  How should that course be maintained, please enlighten us.''

    They water the native grass that is 100 yards out of play there, if that isn't an indication that they over water the course, I don't know what is.  The course plays way too soft, they love there green there!  
  

Do you know for sure that they water the native grasses?  How do you know that?  The super at my club used to be the assistant at Double Eagle.  I will have to ask him to confirm or dispel that statement. 

If that's how the club and members want it, who are we to say they are wrong. Granted, it's not what I would want day-in, day-out, but it's not my club.  Double Eagle is a lot of fun, though.

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