15-17 at T&C work well because they are all good holes that play very differently.
Shane and Pat --
How do they play "very differently"?
How do they reward/punish "aggressive" play?
They don't, for me.
Maybe for younger, longer players like you guys, they do -- but most players aren't nearly so long as you guys are.
All three, for me, are three-shot holes -- requiring a good drive, a well-executed second, and a precise third to give me a birdie chance. (Perhaps if I played No. 15 more often, I'd reach it once in a while, but I don't think 16 or 17 would ever play "very differently" or reward/punish "aggressive" play.)
As I said, I think all three are perfectly fine holes (particularly No. 15, and particularly if they'd mow that hillside to fairway height), but I don't see your arguments for them.
Dan
Dan,
The renovation team at T&C is currently working on 15-16-17, which after they are done there they will only have a couple more things to take care of and the majority of the work will have been completed. Quite a few things on these holes have been (or will be shortly) tweaked/restored (for example, the hillside short of #15 has been restored to fairway height) which I think will enhance each hole's already present strategic nature.
I think each of the holes are largely dictated by each of the unique green sites as well as how aggressive the player is from the tee.
Either way, let me explain to you how I play, or see others play, 15-16-17 at T&C:
#15:
A lower handicap ("LH") and/or aggressive players will typically set out to reach or come close to this green in two shots. Off the tee with a driver they have to flirt with a fairway bunker on the inside corner of the slight left-to-right dogleg that favors a fade. If the aggressive player can carry or hug the bunker, he'll be left with a ~260-275 yard shot to the green which, as you know, sits dramatically below the rest of the hole at the base of a ~40ft hill and with the newly restored fairway short it plays much shorter (a well struck 225 yard shot will reach the green). If the tee shot is not hit on the correct line the ball will hit a slope short left of the bunker and typically run hard left into the rough which can quickly turn the hole into a 3-shot hole. Players going for the green in two now must weigh the risk reward of the green's surrounds...as a shot that is hit too hard will easily run through the green into either a bunker behind the green or worse a hazard (red line).
Conservative/higher handicappers ("HH") typically play the hole from the white tees at 518 with a tee shot that is played short left of the bunker and right-to-left slope. After a layup shot of about ~180 yards they are faced with a shot that must also "play" the hill short of the green. Either electing to hit a shot that flies all the way to the green and hoping it stops or running a ball short and left and running it down. Of course, the HH could always hit a fairway wood to get even closer to the green which would leave a more delicate pitch shot, or lay back and be faced with a completely blind and difficult 3rd shot.
#16:
For LH's, an uphill tee shot that carries approx. 250 yards will carry the fairway bunker on the left side of the fairway leaving a flat lie and an opportunity to go for the green in two. The 2nd shot is gradually downhill and would be approximately 250 yards. LH's going for the green in two have to contend with green surrounds which now include a swale short, a deep bunker just off the right side of the green which the fringe "rolls" into, natural rough/depressions left, and a new fairway roll off area long which leave a player a tough shot as the green slopes back-to-front. The fairway pinches fairly tight just right of the fairway bunker and the slope will kick poor drives LH's laying up are left with a difficult pitch shot from a downhill lie to a very small semi-horseshoe green...surrounded with trouble as previously noted.
HH's may not typically reach 16 in two, but as with the 15th much of the risk/reward comes with the 2nd shot layup. After a tee shot short of the bunker, they are left with a blind shot over a subtle ridge. The more aggressive line is down the left side of the hole, but that brings into play the ~10ft natural depression/fall off short left of the green, however if in the fairway it opens up the best angle to attack the green and a flatter lie. A shot to the right side of the fairway landing area which is wider, but slopes more downhill and right-to-left, and leaves a HHer an approach shot over a bunker with trouble also long left.
#17:
From the back tees, a better player will try to hit a hard draw around the right-to-left dogleg taking advantage of a "speed slot" in the fairway below some remaining American Elm's to set up a ~240 yard 2nd shot. The green on #17 is one of, if not the, most difficult on the course as it is very shallow, yet it features a very sharp back-to-front slope. It is also situated on the edge of a ~75 foot deep ravine ridge which shots just 5 yards over the green or 20 yards right of the green will find and roll down leading to a quick "X" on the scorecard. Most better players will try to get as close to the green as possible as a full short-iron or wedge is difficult to judge and any additional & unwanted spin will bring the ball back off the front of the green and down a hill about 25 yards. Even if the green is reached a two-putt is hardly a guarantee.
#17 is a true-three shot hole for higher handicappers, and a difficult hole in general primarily due to the severe green and its site. The lay-up is interesting mostly due to a quick downhill drop-off at around 150 yards which players either need to try to get to the bottom of and leave a wedge shot or play short of and leave a mid-iron. I would say that the hole plays very different for a HH than the previous two holes as birdies and pars are far less likely.
You have one hole that plays left-to-right, one that plays straight to slightly right-to-left, and one hard right-to-left dogleg. One of the greensites is a natural punchbowl...blind to the player but receptive, one of the greens is a semi-horseshoe and surrounded by hazards, and one sits uphill on a dramatic bluff overlooking downtown Minneapolis, South Minneapolis and the Mississippi River Basin.
All of the holes, from the white tees, effectively play less than 500 yards. I could argue that a player that finds each of these sub-500 yard par-5's true 3-shot holes would find almost any par-5 to be a true 3-shot hole. So even if they are and you're comparing lay-up strategy and quality/variety in the greensites I would argue that 15-16-17 at T&C are well designed, strategic, and fit well into the course's "flow" elevating interest late in the round...particularly during match play.