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Tom Birkert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« on: May 17, 2014, 05:40:33 PM »
All things being equal, what would the learned members say was the better option for a couple of Brits with a spare day in July to fill in that sort of area?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2014, 05:44:41 PM »
Tom,

Both are excellent courses and you can't go wrong with your pick.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2014, 05:46:31 PM »
10 round test, 8 at Sleepy and 2 at Quaker.

If you listen to my advice, I suggest you stay overnight too.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2014, 05:47:17 PM »
Tom,

Both are excellent courses and you can't go wrong with your pick.

Pat Mucci is an Moron. :)

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2014, 06:43:30 PM »
Quaker Ridge is a very fine course, but I love Sleepy Hollow. It's one of my favorite courses. And it's gorgeous.

Consider:













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Andy Troeger

Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2014, 06:52:02 PM »
Tom,

Both are excellent courses and you can't go wrong with your pick.

I support Patrick's statement. This was a wonderful 36 hole day on my trip two years ago. Both courses are similar in terms of quality and interest, but if you can only play one I'd go with Sleepy Hollow because it is a more unique site. Quaker can't match the feeling you get standing on #16 tee at Sleepy Hollow.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2014, 07:07:54 PM »
I'm biased, but if you want to see the best site in Westchester County, its Quaker.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2014, 07:29:58 PM »
Sleepy Hollow is a wonderful day in a beautiful location but Quaker Ridge is one of Tilly's best. If I haven't plyed either I'd play Quaker.  If I just want a nice relaxing day on a fun course I'd play Sleep Hollow.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2014, 07:47:15 PM »
Hair splitting as idle exercise.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2014, 08:43:33 PM »
Both were home sites for my two High School golf teams growing up and I've had the good fortune to play each well over 50+ times.

Loving both equally I wholeheartedly agree with Tommy Williamson's assessment. One has a magnificent site with vistas that are among the best for Northeast golf. The other is an architectural gem that is undoubtedly among AWT's finest. Hard to go wrong with either!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2014, 08:48:03 PM »
Sleepy Hollow by a mile.
Esp. since recent renovation to Sleepy Hollow.
Sleepy Hollow very underrated-Quaker very overrated
both excellent
yes I'm biased
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2014, 09:43:49 PM »
Sleepy Hollow by a mile.
Esp. since recent renovation to Sleepy Hollow.
Sleepy Hollow very underrated-Quaker very overrated
both excellent
yes I'm biased
Jeff,   Please expand on why Quaker is overrated - thanks

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2014, 09:56:46 PM »
Sleepy Hollow by a mile.
Esp. since recent renovation to Sleepy Hollow.
Sleepy Hollow very underrated-Quaker very overrated
both excellent
yes I'm biased
Jeff,   Please expand on why Quaker is overrated - thanks

Understand that I believe a course can be great , yet overrated.
Often compared to Winged Foot due to location, and it's cool to mention it when WF comes up in a converation.

Felt the first 8 holes while sound, had a bit of a similar feel with OB right looming on all holes as you traveled counterclockwise.
Good/great holes individually, but definitely a bit repetitive in a stroke play event.
One of many great courses in Westchester, but Sleepy Hollow stands out with a fantastic mix of wild terrain, scenery, views and classic architecture.

That said, Sleepy Hollow is not underrated on this website, just by the rank and file.
Quaker Ridge long suffered from conditioning issues, but I understand that has been addressed.

and did I mention I lived and worked at sleepy Hollow for 2 years in the early 90's ;) ;D
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 03:44:17 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2014, 10:08:53 PM »
Sleepy Hollow by a mile.
Esp. since recent renovation to Sleepy Hollow.
Sleepy Hollow very underrated-Quaker very overrated
both excellent
yes I'm biased
Jeff,   Please expand on why Quaker is overrated - thanks

Understand that I believe a course can be great , yet overrated.
Often compared to Winged Foot due to location, and it's cool to mention it when WF comes up in a converation.

Felt the first 8 holes while sound, had a bit of a similar feel with OB right looming on all holes as you traveled clockwise.
Good/great holes individually, but definitely a bit repetitive in a stroke play event.
One of many great courses in Westchester, but Sleepy Hollow stands out with a fantastic mix of wild terrain, scenery, views and classic architecture.

That said, Sleepy Hollow is not underrated on this website, just by the rank and file.
Quaker Ridge long suffered from conditioning issues, but I understand that has been addressed.

and did I mention I lived and worked at sleepy Hollow for 2 years in the early 90's ;) ;D
jeff,  have you played Quaker since the bunker renovation?  I don't disagree with the OB right  statement on the front nine- similar to another very good course Huntingdon Valley. My spin is that Tilly routed the course pretty cleverly . Par 3's are very solid as are the par 4's. The par 5 opener was a nice soft starter. I thought Quaker was a pretty solid track.

Jonathan Sirois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2014, 10:54:03 PM »
Sleepy Hollow certainly has the more memorable setting and standout holes. You recognize its greatness early on and can appreciate it throughout the round. It's a blast to play and it has a few holes where the land moves pretty dramatically. Think of a toned-down version of Eastward Ho (on those select holes).

Quaker Ridge, on top of its clever routing and wonderful, classic design, possesses a subtle, understated greatness that is realized after playing it the first time. Set on a much more tame piece of property than Sleepy, Quaker makes the most of its property and has few (if any) weak holes. I'm hardly the first person to say this, but its 6th and 7th holes comprise one of the best pairs of best back-to-back par fours I know. One of Tillie's best for sure. It's a pretty special place. Full disclosure, I looped there for a season.

Play both if you get the chance!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 10:55:46 PM by Jonathan Sirois »
Pining for the fairways.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2014, 11:18:21 PM »

All things being equal, what would the learned members say was the better option for a couple of Brits with a spare day in July to fill in that sort of area?

Tom,

You have to make allowances for Sweeney, especially within three months of St Patrick's Day.

What I would do if I was in your situation would be to try to play Quaker Ridge and Fenway, just a few blocks away.
Fenway is another AWT gem, and yard for yard, probably more difficult than it's neighbors, and, if you had two days, I'd do WFW, WFE, Fenway and Quaker, and AWT Festival that you'll never forget.


Tom Birkert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2014, 03:35:52 PM »
Thanks all for the responses, though it has muddied the waters to a certain extent as they both sound amazing! Unfortunately the rest of the trip is relatively set in stone, so it looks like there will be time for only one of them.

I'll get in touch with both clubs and whichever (if either) is willing to host us then that's where we will go!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2014, 07:18:43 PM »
I would say Sleepy, for this reason: You play the big course, which is a mix of CBM/Raynor, AWT and Hanse/BigJim. You then play the nine hole course, which is a number of the original CBM holes that were taken out of play when the course was expanded, including the Biarritz that is no longer a true Biarritz.

I photographed SH and Fenway ithe Friday of Sebonack Open week last year and have never set foot on QR. I would be hard pressed to recommend any course over SH and I didn't hit a single shot there. In a weird way, it reminds me spiritually of Bandon Trails, in that it has at least three unique feels/appearances to it. I mean, it's amazing!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2014, 07:21:16 PM »
I heartily second Pat's endorsement of Fenway.  Doesn't get the attention it deserves in a very tough neighborhood IMO.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2014, 11:00:11 PM »
I think this is a superb question and I know Tom is looking for decisive/persuasive information.

All I can offer is this:

Sleepy has got the...memorability factor.  The views, the variety of sometimes "audacious" holes, the CBM-Raynor-Template-Engineered cut of its jib, the scale of the property (which, however, can be a negative to the walker - it's a rough walk). I think the Sleepy round lingers in the mind with greater detail and recall than that of Quaker.

For me, Quaker has the three best holes of the 36...#s 9, 14 and #17. Quaker has the three most underrated-sublime holes of the 36...#s 3, 11 & 13 (though 11 gets ink and is oft-cited as a "signature" hole...it's better than even such advertisement.

While perhaps not with the acuteness of a Merion, Quaker is a "neighborhood" course, while not "hidden" from view per se, its got the kind of Wrigley Field charm in that you are in a common (but upscale) neighborhood and boom...there's the familiar logo sign, the English Tudor clubhouse and you say, "Geez, so much history and veneration right off the side of the street." This feeling is amplified immeasurably if you approach the club from the west side of Griffen Avenue when you course along one of Quaker's most audacious holes, the 8th (S. Abramson's 3rd photo below) along your left/driver's side.

Sleepy Hollow feels more remote...out in the country, and there's some nice mystery/zest in that too.  And the views of the magnificent cream stone clubhouse on the approach are very inspiring...teeing off and ending in its lording shadow are part of that memorability I've referenced. AND the routing takes you out in the country too...you wind and scrawl over hill and dale across ravines and down slopes and by the time you're on 8 or 9, you really have no idea where you are in relation to where you started and how you are going to wind up on the 18th tee. For me this feeling lingers even upon repeat playings, albeit less than that first time where I truly was "lost." This perhaps sounds more appealing, but it really matters as to temperament about such things.

I think the most telling analogy is to give these cases of the "12 HCP."

If you are a 12 HCP who's struggling and not playing your game... a top here,  a chunk there, a block slice, a second chili dip, a disinterested 3 putt or four...both courses are going to eat you up, but you're likely to accept the experience with more amusement at Sleepy than at Quaker. At Quaker, that guy never breaks 90 and is more sour

If you are a 12 HCP who has a superb day and breaks 80 from a 6500+ tee, you're going to really know/think you did something at Quaker and you're going to mention it every time you encounter a friend-golfer who doesn't know what you shot there.  On such a day, you're going to remember the "round" and therefore, the course, with greater respect than if you have such a day at Sleepy, which though every bit as difficult "feels" (as many template courses do) that it was available if you could hit the ball mostly where you wanted. Quaker is more sublime and makes you--as a golfer--feel more sublimely "worthy" of that good score....which also leads to the 3rd case of the 12HCP

If you are a 12 HCP who plays his normal game and shoots 82-86, you're going to want to return to Sleepy moreso than Quaker because you know better was available.  You "knew" that you should've taken more club, you "knew" you should have trusted what the caddie said about aiming on a blind shot, you "knew" you should've not feared that long putt, you "knew" it was more open on this side than the one.

This last case is another point of "memorability" that is not always understood (and another point of the appeal of template courses)...Though we can't always control our golf ball on command, and blindness is incorporated into some of the template designs...they seem to have a unanimity in their obvious commands...you know what to do at a Cape...a Redan...a Short...a Punchbowl...you know what the decision is on a Leven...a Sahara...double plateau...you know where not to miss on an Eden, a Road, a Prize-Dog-leg.  Depending on your game and temperament, there's a delightful frustration in that - when it was obvious what to do, but you can't do it with any consistency.  

Meanwhile at Quaker (and a lot of the Tillies I know) you've got to seek out the correct strategy shot by shot...While some shots are plain an obvious, there's a bit more figuring out your own path and compensation for imperfection, you may understand some Tillie-generalities..."don't miss to the sides of greens"..."club to the front edge" "stay from 8 to 4 o clock. Tillie's are somehow more frank, yet more camouflaged shot by shot.

That advertisement for my subtle brilliance aside, I have to give it to Sleepy by more than a nose, but less than a head...unless I have to walk, in which case I'll be at Quaker.

cheers

vk
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 11:02:23 PM by V. Kmetz »
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2014, 06:07:53 AM »
vk writes a thoughtful post.

SH is less of a template course because some of the template holes (the biarritz, for one) are part of the third nine, not the regular 18-hole rotation. The woodland holes are not template in nature, giving the course its blended-family character.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2014, 10:27:44 AM »
I find the outcome of this thread very surprising.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2014, 11:22:23 AM »
I find the outcome of this thread very surprising.
So do I-  Quaker was in outstanding shape , Bunker reno turned out very well, routing was very clever given the limitations of the property. Some world class par 4's . Easy to walk. Very fair, stern test of golf. At Sleepy you will see the typical Raynor template holes- and that's not a bad thing. At Quaker you will see some pretty unique holes IMO.

Jonathan Sirois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow or Quaker Ridge?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2014, 02:08:44 PM »
Making it through the first eight holes at Quaker with a respectable score is no small feat. Doing so puts you in great scoring position and state of mind to conquer and enjoy the wonderful holes the back nine has in store.
Pining for the fairways.