Kohler 5th Course

[Michael George]

News on the 5th course at Kohler:

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20140513/GPG03/305130181?gcheck=1&nclick_check=1

A Kohler official indicated that it would be a top 50 golf course in the world and better than Whistling Straits......I obviously wish them the best, but wow, nothing like setting the bar high.

Can we expect all future high profile developments to follow in Donald Trump's footsteps and make bold claims about how great the golf course is going to be?  If so, I really feel bad for the architects.  How do you live up to that?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Perhaps Kohler is feeling the heat from Erin Hills and the pending Sand Valley.
I live in Chicago and went to the American Club (Riverbend, actually) with my wife last summer.

It was the 3rd weekend in July - prime time in WI - and the MV and River course were WIDE open.
No, I'm not talking a few openings here. I'm talking EMPTY at 1:30 pm with the parking lot 1/3 full. We teed off at 2 and did not see another group on the course.

Did not go to Irish or Straits.
But, the Straits, at close to $500 all-in with a caddie, is not a course I intend to play more than once every 2 or 3 years.

The 5th course is going to have to be something special to distinguish itself. Dont know if Pete Dye will do it. Has anyone heard.

[Jud_T]

There's another thread saying Pete's doing it.

[Jim Sherma]

I've never been to any of the Kohler properties and have to say that a 5th pete Dye course adds absoloutely zero incremental interest in choosing it as a future destination. I have no doubt that it is a wonderful destination but I just don't see where this would increase the desirability on the margin.

[Howard Riefs]

There's another thread saying Pete's doing it.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57903.0.html

[Matthew Rose]

As much a fan of Dye that I am, I worry that having five courses at one resort is overkill. I'm not convinced it would be different or unique enough from the others.

[Mike Bowen]

I'm a huge fan of rustic, low maintenance golf courses.  I think the biggest advantage is the savings that can be passed on to the golfer.  But how does one justify a $500 green fee.  Bandon and Cabot are not even close to this price.  The only two advantages that the American Club might have are location and a more patriotic name.   

[PCCraig]

The only two advantages that the American Club might have are location and a more patriotic name.   

...and a history of hosting major championships...

[Bill Seitz]

The only two advantages that the American Club might have are location and a more patriotic name.  

...and a history of hosting major championships...

Location is a pretty darn big factor.  It's fairly easy driving distance of four pretty good sized markets if you're going for a weekend, and two if you're just going for a day.  Just a few weekends ago I left my apartment early Saturday morning, played 36 holes, and drove home on the same night.  I would imagine the number of people who can do that at Bandon and Cabot Links is pretty small.  There's at least 20 million people who can do that at Kohler.

[Andrew Buck]

The only two advantages that the American Club might have are location and a more patriotic name.  

...and a history of hosting major championships...

Location is a pretty darn big factor.  It's fairly easy driving distance of four pretty good sized markets if you're going for a weekend, and two if you're just going for a day.  Just a few weekends ago I left my apartment early Saturday morning, played 36 holes, and drove home on the same night.  I would imagine the number of people who can do that at Bandon and Cabot Links is pretty small.  There's at least 20 million people who can do that at Kohler.

What I can't wrap my head around is how a 5th course is going to bring in any additional players.  It's already considered the premiere golf destination in the midwest for the avid golfer (especially those that aren't GCA "educated"), provides nice variety and a course that has hosted majors.  I guess I can see some groups coming back one more time to see the new course, but not sure the one-time kick associated with that justifies the expense to add a course. 

Just hard for me to imagine, in that location at that price point given current utilization that it's the right financial move.  Then again, I'm sure Mr Kohler is aware of what he's doing, and there is always a chance the motivation is beyond profit. 

[Jason Thurman]

It's already considered the premiere golf destination in the midwest for the avid golfer (especially those that aren't GCA "educated")

What destination does the more refined palate of an educated golfer consider to be superior? Please share your tastes so the unwashed masses can improve theirs.

[Howard Riefs]

Just hard for me to imagine, in that location at that price point given current utilization that it's the right financial move.  Then again, I'm sure Mr Kohler is aware of what he's doing, and there is always a chance the motivation is beyond profit. 

Herb and his family have a net worth of $6B and run a private company with $5B annual revenues. Spending a few million on a golf course is akin to a rounding error. 

[Jud_T]

Just hard for me to imagine, in that location at that price point given current utilization that it's the right financial move.  Then again, I'm sure Mr Kohler is aware of what he's doing, and there is always a chance the motivation is beyond profit.  

Herb and his family have a net worth of $6B and run a private company with $5B annual revenues. Spending a few million on a golf course is akin to a rounding error.  

Yes,

But he should only hire architects that have the GCA stamp of approval.

P.S. Is his middle name Garden?

[Andrew Buck]

It's already considered the premiere golf destination in the midwest for the avid golfer (especially those that aren't GCA "educated")

What destination does the more refined palate of an educated golfer consider to be superior? Please share your tastes so the unwashed masses can improve theirs.

I'm not offering any that are better.  I simply know these courses have received some level of criticism here.  I was trying to avoid that debate to stipulate that almost everyone would consider it the premiere destination, even if some on GCA prefer Lawsonia or similar. 

[Terry Lavin]

Just hard for me to imagine, in that location at that price point given current utilization that it's the right financial move.  Then again, I'm sure Mr Kohler is aware of what he's doing, and there is always a chance the motivation is beyond profit. 

Herb and his family have a net worth of $6B and run a private company with $5B annual revenues. Spending a few million on a golf course is akin to a rounding error. 

The King of the Links opining on the King of the Sinks!  Well said. 

[Andrew Buck]

Just hard for me to imagine, in that location at that price point given current utilization that it's the right financial move.  Then again, I'm sure Mr Kohler is aware of what he's doing, and there is always a chance the motivation is beyond profit.  

Herb and his family have a net worth of $6B and run a private company with $5B annual revenues. Spending a few million on a golf course is akin to a rounding error.  

Good point, which is why I stipulated a motivation beyond profit.  

If he would like to spend several million to build a course, and another million or so annually to maintain a course simply because he wants another course more than he wants his money, that's great and I welcome it.  I understand it's not changing his life.

If it's a response to heat from Erin Hills and Sand Valley on the business side, as suggested in this thread, I'd be initially skeptical that it would provide the benefit they're looking for long term.  If it's a simply a desire to control as many great golf courses as he can, sounds great to me.

[Jason Thurman]

I'm not going to ask a bunch of questions about everyone's motivations. If we're going to get one more public-accessible lakeshore course in this current climate for course construction, I'm all for it. If we get one more course from the retired 88 year old greatest living architect in the process, even better. The worst thing that could possibly happen is a course that I'm not interested in playing, and I'll happily lay down the few million dollars of Herb's money on the offhand chance that something incredible happens.

[Andrew Buck]

I'm not going to ask a bunch of questions about everyone's motivations. If we're going to get one more public-accessible lakeshore course in this current climate for course construction, I'm all for it. If we get one more course from the retired 88 year old greatest living architect in the process, even better. The worst thing that could possibly happen is a course that I'm not interested in playing, and I'll happily lay down the few million dollars of Herb's money on the offhand chance that something incredible happens.

We certainly can agree on that. 

[Mike Bowen]

The only two advantages that the American Club might have are location and a more patriotic name.  

...and a history of hosting major championships...

If you're into that kind of thing.

[Jim_Coleman]

    I spend 3 months a year at a place with 5 Pete Dye courses.  I'm not complaining.

[David Kelly]

Pete Dye's involvement in a new course at his age now will mean heavy input from Perry and P.B. and that doesn't inspire confidence.

[Matt Kardash]

Pete Dye's involvement in a new course at his age now will mean heavy input from Perry and P.B. and that doesn't inspire confidence.

Why do you say that? As far as I know PB and Perry had no role at French Lick. I think when Pete is excited about a course he usually handles it on his own. I am just more worried about how much creativity an 88 year old man has left in the tank. It would be nice to see Pete Dye do something a little unexpected to make this course stand out from the 4 others.

[RJ_Daley]

I have to think that Herb Kohler is just as hopelessly addicted to the game and loves the fields of play as much we poor obcessed souls, but has a larger item line in the fun and recreation budget than the rest of us, except Mucci and Hammy.  

[PCCraig]

The only two advantages that the American Club might have are location and a more patriotic name.  

...and a history of hosting major championships...

If you're into that kind of thing.

Well, I'm not but I'd guess that 99% of golfers are...and most will happily pay $500 once or twice in their lives to play a public major championship site. 

[Andy Troeger]

Pete Dye's involvement in a new course at his age now will mean heavy input from Perry and P.B. and that doesn't inspire confidence.

Why do you say that? As far as I know PB and Perry had no role at French Lick. I think when Pete is excited about a course he usually handles it on his own. I am just more worried about how much creativity an 88 year old man has left in the tank. It would be nice to see Pete Dye do something a little unexpected to make this course stand out from the 4 others.

I'm actually excited for Pete to get another chance to build a great course. Blackwolf Run was my favorite course at the time that I played it and is still one of the very best IMO. Two parts of this that worry me a bit are (1) that this new course is obviously being built for the pros--so it will probably be over the top difficult and (2) the results from French Lick, which were creative but very odd. I'd love to see a course here that fits in line with The Golf Club or even Pete Dye GC, two courses that use natural land features very well. The parts of Blackwolf Run (both courses) on really good land (the river section of the River course and the back nine on Meadow Valleys) also do this very well.