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Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
“What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« on: May 14, 2014, 09:11:42 AM »
I’ve been trying to get my head around “What is the measure of success for an architect?”

My amusing answer to that question recently was “having the ability to fire a client”, but that speaks to the health of a business and not the quality of work being done.

We don’t need to debate the architects with multiple ranked courses because a Top 100 Course in my mind clearly defines a successful career … or at least it does for me. But others may debate architects like Hanse, Phillips and Whitman saying that’s not enough for them.

Is it a universally loved course that grows out of a poor site? Clearly never destined to make a Top 100, but architecturally a success all the same? Or does there need to be multiple examples of rock solid work regardless of the site?

I saw a lot of Maxwell two weeks back and some of the lesser known courses impressed me just as much as the well-known works. My estimation of his work has risen with each new course. For me the same can be said for Deverault Emmet.

Is it your peers who really decide how good you are? MacKenzie clearly admired Maxwell’s work.

What if you don’t build a new course in your career? Is it working with the elite clubs? That seems to matter a lot here. Do you need to build new courses to be successful? One of the architects I admire most in the business has not have his name on a single course, yet I would say he’s one of the very best in the business.

Is it pushing out the envelope like Mike Strantz? The outliers are often the most important, but time is required to identify that career as being vital to other careers that follow.

Beyond making a list, what defines success?
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 10:29:21 AM »
I like what Peggy Gunter wrote about her father, Ralph Plummer, shortly after his death:

“He would wish that everyone could be a lucky as he was to work to the end, making the course a test for the good golfer and a pleasure for the duffer.”

IMO, a successful architect has longevity which is a function of designing courses which are financially viable.  From my Plummer opinion piece:  "The pragmatic, practical side of Mr. Plummer was readily revealed when he cautioned that building the course is not the only thing that is important, but that it must be done in a way that it can be operated at a profit.  'A good architect provides surrounding land areas suitable for home sites or some other practical purpose.' ”

I do agree with Brad Klein's comment several years back that critical acclaim and commercial success are two different things.  In this context, I guess it all depends on what the architect wishes to achieve.  If he wants to design for the masses and is able to make a good living, he is successful. On the other hand, if he wants to please Pat Mucci and receives his approval, even at the risk of being labeled a MORON in green, who would argue his success? 
 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2014, 10:41:53 AM »
...
Beyond making a list, what defines success?


When you go home every night knowing you have done the best you can do under reasonable assumptions.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2014, 10:46:38 AM »
As long as you own a ruler you will always be a failure in someones eyes.  Matter of fact I thought you were one of the more successful architects working today but gotta say that after seeing you start this thread I must have been mistaken.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2014, 10:46:55 AM »
Personal satisfaction - plus not working yourself into the ground that you're working on.

Who had it better than CBM, picking only what he wanted to do, or C&C today?




"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Brent Hutto

Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2014, 10:49:29 AM »
Slope rating?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2014, 10:50:28 AM »
Pete Dye is a failure because he will not live to see one of his courses host a US Open.  That is, if he gives a damn.  Most likely it is the USGA that failed him.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2014, 11:59:20 AM »
Hi, Ian!

"Success FOR an architect"...?

Tough for non-archs to comment, but - like any other business - I would have to say:

1. Satisfied clients
2. Referrals from clients
3. Repeat clients
4. Clients who do not squeeze you on price...;-)

If you mean "objective success" in the eyes of others...?...well, I will leave that to the regulars here.

Enjoyed playing with you couple years back. Course opens next week after all the work.
Cheers,
Ian

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2014, 12:37:24 PM »
How about if others are willing to work with you?

I know of one archie who, on the last project I know he worked on, was alone.  He had to do the grow in by himself, too. Is that a counter factual?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2014, 01:24:58 PM »
I think it is a question that can measured in several different ways. I have always walked away from what I consider to be a shit project. That could be lack of money or horrible land parcel. I have always wanted the project to be viable and ultimately successful for the owner. So far none of my courses have gone bust and pretty much all are amongst the top couple of per cent that actually make money. Many have since added additional loops of nine or more after the original 18. I design and build golf courses that are value for money and dont cost more than $1.5M, I will design and build on small parcels (sub 100 acres for 18) but never that poor that they could not hold a county championship, so I walk away if I can't hit the bar. I am 15-0 - so in my world that's what I call success though I do not consider myself to be a top architect. I suspect the true measure could be the number of courses that ranked in the 100, but those things are very subjective, so I liken it more to the success of an album and some albums never made the top of the charts first time around but linger like slow burners forever.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2014, 02:28:41 PM »
To be remembered and still have your courses discussed/analysed etc long after you've passed away?
atb

Peter Pallotta

Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2014, 03:42:30 PM »
Ian - you have a wife and children, right? Well, if you've kept them housed, fed, clothed and loved all these years by working at something that you enjoy and believe has intrinsic value, then you've already done better than most. And if your work has done no harm and instead added something good and lovely to the world, and has led to you garnering the respect of those whom you respect, then you're already successful. And if though the challenges and disappointments of trying to build a career via good and valuable and life sustaining work you've also managed to grow in personal wisdom and patience and humility, then I think you've already won/earned the lottery, and have made of this veil of tears and mortal coil the best that can be made of it. Let the critics keep being critics, happy only when they are tearing down one accomplishment here or self-promoting another one there; and let the developers keep on developing, marking their progress based on the profitability of the deal, and on their next million; and let golfers be golfers, keeping score in whatever way suits them best, be that strokes taken or laughs shared; and let the specialists keep on nit-picking, claiming that this site was worse than that one, or that this routing didn't utilize that feature well enough. Happily accept that everyone has their own hierarchy of values, but just try to make sure that you honour your own personal/inner hierarchy of values, and that you judge yourself -- if you must judge -- by those standards and by none other. I have a feeling that one sure way to have a sense of success elude us is by embracing values second hand, as it were, from the world or from other people; and the second sure way to miss success is to have a moveable feast of personal values, one that changes with the seasons. It's interesting: the beauty of golf is that we compete against no one but ourselves, i.e. that, as Tom Paul was fond of pointing out, it's the rare game where opponents don't vie for the ball. And the beauty of golf course architecture is that the craftsman's work begins in/with the earth and with Nature, and that in the end Nature will inevitably claim back for itself that work, in whole or in part. In other words, it's the perfect game and the perfect profession for engendering personal value systems and for informing a healthy understanding of our ultimate place in the world. (Dust that golf course was, and to Dust it shall return.) The old Scots, remember, believed that golf courses were meant to be created (and the game meant to be played) on land that was of little value for anything else, i.e. on sandy, scrubby shores whipped by wind on which they could grow no food nor find any shelter. Those old Scots, I'd say, kept the game and the profession and themselves in a proper perspective for a long, long time. Best I think not to let a few decades in the reign of the signature-architect or in the era of the massive housing developments or half-million dollar initiation fees throw that perspective out of whack.

Peter
P.S. of course, all of the above reflects my own hierarchy of values, and I don't mean to impose/project them onto you.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 04:24:01 PM by PPallotta »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 07:13:33 PM »
Ian,
IMHO each would measure it differently.  I certainly don't think fame or "top 100" rankings should be the goal. If it happens, that's great.   Golf architecture/design/build is the most holistic of the golf occupations and that in itself is what I enjoy.  Being able to continue to have clients and charge a fee that allows one to make a living in the business over a period of years is a measure of success for me.  One should be just as happy providing good everyday golf at an affordable price in small town America as if he were working for the top clubs or top resorts and maybe more so.  I think some of the most angry,miserable, jealous golf designers I have met were the ones vying for some of the top work.

Each of us is different and success doesn't require building new clubs or working with elite clubs.  Look ho many building architects are out there and think of how many you can name and know their work.  For me, it is just a handful and yet I know plenty of successful architects.  For me, I can't stand working for a club or doing a renovation because I like doing my own stuff and not having to tip toe over what someone else had done and listen to some committee. 

So many think fame is the answer to this business when in reality no one is really supposed to know who the golf architect is.  Golf architect notoriety was a product of the RE boom. 

So if you get up in the mornings with work, a family  and love what you do, then you have your answer.  Of course I guess true success  for a Canadian would be their desire to be an American from the South. ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCowan

Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 07:48:36 PM »
Is it a universally loved course that grows out of a poor site? Clearly never destined to make a Top 100, but architecturally a success all the same?  +1

M.Y. and Adrian,
   Epic post as well

-Arm chair perspective  
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 07:52:44 PM by BCowan »

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 08:51:18 PM »
A check that doesn't bounce?  Seriously, I would think knowing that you've created something that may endure for decades or even centuries has to be a satisfying feeling.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 09:20:55 PM »
Brian,

Whenever I find anyone on site having a bad day, I remind them that, "We are building golf courses - isn't that crazy when you think about it - and people may be still enjoying this 100 years later and wondering why we made the decisions we made today. How cool is that?" After 25 years I still have the occasional pinch me moment ...  :)
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 09:29:15 PM »
I'm enjoying the answers.
Not looking for anything particular, just curious to see where the question would go.
My growing interest in The Great Upheaval has sent me down this curious path... 


A further question:
Can one great piece of work speak for an artist if a second opportunity never comes?
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2014, 09:40:04 PM »
I'm enjoying the answers.
Not looking for anything particular, just curious to see where the question would go.
My growing interest in The Great Upheaval has sent me down this curious path... 


A further question:
Can one great piece of work speak for an artist if a second opportunity never comes?


Does it matter?  In the overall scheme only the artist worries about it. :)

Add this one to you question.
Has there ever been a great( maybe famous is a better word) architect who got there without  without a great piece of property ?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2014, 09:54:28 PM »
Ian,

Which of these two enjoys their work more?

Signature architect:
awakes knowing he needs four projects to function that year.
spends an hour talking to his sales person about negotiating appearances and contract pricing.
discusses staff and office expense with CPA and office manager
talks to sales person again birching about how bad other signature competitor is
does interview with magazine Q&A and says same thing again and again
figures out a day he can see all projects and be back w/o spending night.
ask draftman if that thing on drawing is a tee or a green

Once a month takes G4 to client courses for couple of hours.

______________________________________

redneck regional archie

wakes up
puts on tee shirt and goes to Waffle House
Checks with shaper to make sure things are going ok at site.
Comes back to home office and makes sure materials needed for the week are being delivered to site.
Talks to client to see if any issues?
Goes to club and hits balls and eats lunch.
Comes back to home office and makes sure next day work is scheduled and discusses with shaper.
Goes to gym for body sculpting

every third day either drives or takes single engine cramped plane to site and spends all day.
back in time for body sculpting and spray tan





"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2014, 11:19:36 PM »
A successful architect has clients.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2014, 11:52:37 PM »
I'm enjoying the answers.
Not looking for anything particular, just curious to see where the question would go.
My growing interest in The Great Upheaval has sent me down this curious path... 


A further question:
Can one great piece of work speak for an artist if a second opportunity never comes?


Yes. George Crump at Pine valley

Does it matter?  In the overall scheme only the artist worries about it. :)

Add this one to you question.
Has there ever been a great( maybe famous is a better word) architect who got there without  without a great piece of property ?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2014, 01:54:04 AM »
Isn't the real measure of success for anyone when they can do what they want to?

If so, then everyone who's active in the business ought to feel successful.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2014, 03:57:38 AM »
Ian - you have a wife and children, right? Well, if you've kept them housed, fed, clothed and loved all these years by working at something that you enjoy and believe has intrinsic value, then you've already done better than most. And if your work has done no harm and instead added something good and lovely to the world, and has led to you garnering the respect of those whom you respect, then you're already successful. And if though the challenges and disappointments of trying to build a career via good and valuable and life sustaining work you've also managed to grow in personal wisdom and patience and humility, then I think you've already won/earned the lottery, and have made of this veil of tears and mortal coil the best that can be made of it. Let the critics keep being critics, happy only when they are tearing down one accomplishment here or self-promoting another one there; and let the developers keep on developing, marking their progress based on the profitability of the deal, and on their next million; and let golfers be golfers, keeping score in whatever way suits them best, be that strokes taken or laughs shared; and let the specialists keep on nit-picking, claiming that this site was worse than that one, or that this routing didn't utilize that feature well enough. Happily accept that everyone has their own hierarchy of values, but just try to make sure that you honour your own personal/inner hierarchy of values, and that you judge yourself -- if you must judge -- by those standards and by none other. I have a feeling that one sure way to have a sense of success elude us is by embracing values second hand, as it were, from the world or from other people; and the second sure way to miss success is to have a moveable feast of personal values, one that changes with the seasons. It's interesting: the beauty of golf is that we compete against no one but ourselves, i.e. that, as Tom Paul was fond of pointing out, it's the rare game where opponents don't vie for the ball. And the beauty of golf course architecture is that the craftsman's work begins in/with the earth and with Nature, and that in the end Nature will inevitably claim back for itself that work, in whole or in part. In other words, it's the perfect game and the perfect profession for engendering personal value systems and for informing a healthy understanding of our ultimate place in the world. (Dust that golf course was, and to Dust it shall return.) The old Scots, remember, believed that golf courses were meant to be created (and the game meant to be played) on land that was of little value for anything else, i.e. on sandy, scrubby shores whipped by wind on which they could grow no food nor find any shelter. Those old Scots, I'd say, kept the game and the profession and themselves in a proper perspective for a long, long time. Best I think not to let a few decades in the reign of the signature-architect or in the era of the massive housing developments or half-million dollar initiation fees throw that perspective out of whack.

Peter
P.S. of course, all of the above reflects my own hierarchy of values, and I don't mean to impose/project them onto you.

Peter are you familiar with Candide?   It’s often summed up by its concluding thought

Grow your garden.

Even if it’s a bit gnomic and must mean different things to different people, you allowed for that. Well said.



Ian is that all you are asking? Some of the replies have been about the work and some about the life as a whole. You seem to me to be one of the most balanced of contributors on here with I would project a sunny and friendly disposition. Your blog reveals the depth of your knowledge and understanding of Golf and iarchitecture. You clearly have respect of your peers. From here that looks a lot like success.

Ian do you find the answers you are getting satisfying? It’s an interesting question.


Paul Simon put it well.

“The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains."


Let's make GCA grate again!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2014, 05:53:22 AM »
Isn't the real measure of success for anyone when they can do what they want to?

If so, then everyone who's active in the business ought to feel successful.
Amen....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “What is the measure of success for an architect?”
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2014, 06:44:35 AM »
Tony Johnstone - much loved and very successful European tour player from Zimbabwe - played Royal Melbourne once in his career.
We played a practice round and after playing the par 3 5th West he said 'If I was a golf course designer and I designed one hole as great as that I would think my career a success.'