Fringeless greens

[John Connolly]

We are in the middle of a course restoration which involves green expansion. The greens are being developed to have no fringe, apron or collar. I have never played on greens with no variable height turf between the putting surface and adjacent rough. Is this a style anyone is familiar with? I'm assuming it is considered "old school" but I reallly don't know other courses that have this look. Greenside rough is projected to be about 2 inches. Thoughts?

[BCowan]

Elk Run (Greg Norman course).  Has or had no fringes.  Course is in metro Cincinnati.  It is unique.

[Alex Miller]

We are in the middle of a course restoration which involves green expansion. The greens are being developed to have no fringe, apron or collar. I have never played on greens with no variable height turf between the putting surface and adjacent rough. Is this a style anyone is familiar with? I'm assuming it is considered "old school" but I reallly don't know other courses that have this look. Greenside rough is projected to be about 2 inches. Thoughts?

I know there are many on here that are not fans of the intermediary cut, BUT...

I played a course a few years ago after a renovation of its own. There was a very low cut fringe and no intermediate cut to the 4in. rough. Now I'm not saying that rough has to be this long to cause a problem, because I think green -> 2 in rough could cause some of the same headaches, but I had a couple shots where my ball rolled up against the collar and I couldn't see it at address. I was not a fan and I generally don't have a problem with conditions as long as the course isn't over-watered. Anyway, it's a personal pet peeve of mine and unappealing to me.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Arcadia Bluffs

[John Connolly]

We are in the middle of a course restoration which involves green expansion. The greens are being developed to have no fringe, apron or collar. I have never played on greens with no variable height turf between the putting surface and adjacent rough. Is this a style anyone is familiar with? I'm assuming it is considered "old school" but I reallly don't know other courses that have this look. Greenside rough is projected to be about 2 inches. Thoughts?

I know there are many on here that are not fans of the intermediary cut, BUT...

I played a course a few years ago after a renovation of its own. There was a very low cut fringe and no intermediate cut to the 4in. rough. Now I'm not saying that rough has to be this long to cause a problem, because I think green -> 2 in rough could cause some of the same headaches, but I had a couple shots where my ball rolled up against the collar and I couldn't see it at address. I was not a fan and I generally don't have a problem with conditions as long as the course isn't over-watered. Anyway, it's a personal pet peeve of mine unappealing to me.

I have some of the same concerns. I can see the ball rolling up against the rough on many occasions. And that's no fun. We shall see.

[John Connolly]

Arcadia Bluffs

Anthony,

I suppose it's easier maintenance?

[Adam Clayman]

Heard of? Make sure you don't miss a minute of this years us open.

[John Connolly]

Heard of? Make sure you don't miss a minute of this years us open.

Upon reviewing pics from previous and restored Pinehurst, the crowned greens seem to have a small ring of fringe and then runoff into tight grass surrounds or bunkers. What I don't see is putting surface going straight into 2 inch (or more) rough.

[Adam Clayman]

There will only be two HOC at Pinehurst. Green height and fair green height. Unless
I misunderstood your premise, the notion that short grass is a hazard also comes to mind.

[Steve Lapper]

We do it at Paramount. After initial member consternation, most accepted that they liked it and worked on improving their chipping.

[John Connolly]

There will only be two HOC at Pinehurst. Green height and fair green height. Unless
I misunderstood your premise, the notion that short grass is a hazard also comes to mind.

I think between the two, green abutting rough and green abutting fairway height turf, the latter would seem infinitely more hazardous. What an immense challenge that will be, even for the best golfers in the world. Using short grass as a hazard is probably an under appreciated and under utilized tool.

With regard to our restoration, I guess I was looking for experiences that dealt specifically with putting surface against only rough. A reasonable struck ball nestling against 2 inch rough strikes me as, um, uninviting! We'll see. Maybe I'll learn how to use a hybrid 

[Kevin_Reilly]

The recently redone Poppy Hills has only one cut tee-to-green.  You can use a putter around the greens.

[John Connolly]

We do it at Paramount. After initial member consternation, most accepted that they liked it and worked on improving their chipping.

Didn't Paramount just undergo an Urbina restoration? He's handling our restoration so that would be consistent.

[Bob Harris]

When I was at the restored Philadelphia Cricket Wissahickon course last fall, the greens were fringeless and there was no first cut in the rough.  They were expecting resistance from some members, but the plan is to go with that when the course opens the end of this month.

[Carl Rogers]

Isn't this question about how strenuously one desires to defend par?

[John Connolly]

Isn't this question about how strenuously one desires to defend par?

I think it's about several things and I suppose defending par is one of them. The implication of fringeless greens (defined for purposes of this thread as having only 2 HOC's - putting surface and 2 inch rough) being more difficult and therefore a better defense is one I would agree with, although I can't say that is universally held. That's something I'm trying to get a better handle on as our restoration matures.

Other ramifications of this style would be:

1 - maintenance ease and cost. Probably easier to maintain and hence cheaper.
2 - aesthetics. I'm unsure how it will look.
3 - enjoyment. At the end of the day, I guess this one's the most important. How will the membership enjoy this new configuration? Will we enjoy developing new parts of our game, e.g. greenside chipping, hybrid applications, etc...?

[Adam Warren]

I don't think I have a huge problem with it as long as there aren't a ton of moderate run off areas.  A severe run-off area is probably actually better b/c the ball will pick up enough momentum to carry it on into the rough and not lay against the edge of the rough.  If there are areas that would lend itself to lots of balls being on the green, but having to most likely "belly" the ball with a wedge, I'm not a huge fan of that. 

Regardless, this is not as bad as a course that goes from fairway directly to 3 inch or so rough.  I played a course a few years ago that was preparing for a professional tournament (not PGA Tour) and they did not have a step/first cut and rolling up against the edge of the fairway was brutal. 

[Jim Hoak]

John, who is helping your Club with the renovation?  Whose idea was this no-fringe idea?

[Brian Chapin]

John, the look is really cool and if your super is creative, there can be a lot of hidden benefits from an agronomic standpoint.  Among them, the fringeless green actually requires slightly less maintenance than a traditional collar cut. We were able to make the transition over the period of about 2 months in the spring with minimal turf loss.  The trickiest part is the front of the green, where you'll have to make a decision whether to round of the corners or mow straight across.  We played around with blending the line all together so that you could barely tell where the fairway cut transitioned to green, but that complicates things with tournaments and competitive play and it kinda negates the savings in maintenance time.

I'd be happy to discuss the topic in greater detail with you anytime. PM me.

This picture was taken the first season after mowing them down.

[Joe Bausch]

I did a thread on Paramount last year:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56201.0.html

[Wade Whitehead]

There's no fringe at TOC, right?

WW

[John Connolly]

I did a thread on Paramount last year:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56201.0.html

The course looks delish. Urbina et al knocked it out of the park. Love the bunkering. Fringeless greens are growing on me - we'll have to see if we can pull it off. Did your green expansions use the same turf as the existing green? We used a different variety of bent and the color doesn't match evenly but maybe that improves over time.

[John Connolly]

There's no fringe at TOC, right?

WW

Good question. Only played it once - and it was snowing so I was a bit preoccupied and didn't notice!!

[Randy Thompson]

John,
Golf course architecture seems to be rewarding those who are able to think out of the box and throw some new things out there. I think it will work fine if were talking about a cool season turf stand. What your accustomed to, or the more traditional, common set up would be the Green at an 1/8 of inch and maybe the collar a one or two greensmower width of 3/8 of an inch or a little less, then the rough 2 inches. Its a difficult shot when your ball comes to rest on the 3/8 border with the two inch border. Do you really think there will be that much of an increase in the complication factor going from 1/8 to two inch vs 3/8 to two inch? Put trust in your Archtect and accept that there will always be those that don´t like it but give it mínimum one year and if the majority of the members aren´t happy, then it pretty easy to install the more traditional look.

[Sean_A]

I spose its clever if one accepts that there will be rough between greens/fairways and bunkers etc -  premise I don't accpet.  Almost always I am going to prefer more short grass in more places, especially around greens and sand.

Ciao