[Bill_McBride]

Pat Mucci,

I agree with you that there is nothing special about the land at courses like Winged Foot or Baltusrol. However, since living in Houston I haven't seen any land comparable to Quaker Ridge.

Tim,

I could say the same thing about Boynton Beach, Florida, yet Pine Tree, once ranked 27 in Golf Digest's list sits on dead flat land.

Hogan calld it the greatest flat course in America.

Maidstone is relatively flat as is Westhampton, Southampton, Atlantic City, Seaview, Hollywood and many other good to great courses.
Hence, I don't find flat to relatively flat land an impediment to greatness.

Didn't Tom Doak design a terrific course in Lubbock on dead flat land ?

It was dead flat before he started. 

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Pat Mucci,

I agree with you that there is nothing special about the land at courses like Winged Foot or Baltusrol. However, since living in Houston I haven't seen any land comparable to Quaker Ridge.

Tim,

I could say the same thing about Boynton Beach, Florida, yet Pine Tree, once ranked 27 in Golf Digest's list sits on dead flat land.

Hogan calld it the greatest flat course in America.

Maidstone is relatively flat as is Westhampton, Southampton, Atlantic City, Seaview, Hollywood and many other good to great courses.
Hence, I don't find flat to relatively flat land an impediment to greatness.

Didn't Tom Doak design a terrific course in Lubbock on dead flat land ?

Golf Digest once had another of Hogan's flat favorites, the Cypress Creek course at Champions, in America's top 10.  All that these references prove is that "great" is a moving target.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

You really don't have a sense of humor, do you?  Check that, please don't answer this, as I don't need to hear how funny you think you are.
The fact that I engage in discussions/debates with you is proof positive that I have a sense of humor.

Yes, Tillie did venture down to Texas to build courses.  I remember reading somewhere how his connection with the folks down there came about, but I can't recall the exact details nor find the source right now.  My best guess is that he was brought down to do one or two courses, and afterwards became the go to guy for anyone looking to build a course.  

So AWT and his "team" made the trek to Texas and undertook building golf courses.
I thought you said that moving a "team" to Texas was difficult ?

It would be interesting to have Phil Young chime in and tell us the back stories for Brackenridge Park, Brook Hollow, Cedar Crest, Corsicana, etc.  Where did the money for these projects come from?  Who were the main players?  What were their golf influences/roots?

Maxwell's connections with Texas are fairly obvious.  For a good portion of his career, he was right up the road.  

Ross came through a couple of times in the '20's to build three courses.  I have no idea if he made the trip or designed from topos, nor how much time he spent on site, if any.

If he did, he must have brought his "team" with him.
I thought you claimed that that was too difficult.

As noted, this only represents a fraction of the number of courses that were built in Texas in the early days.  By 1940, there had been approximately 240 courses built in the State.  That is not an insignificant number.  

Just more proof that there was a paucity of quality courses in Texas

Who built and maintained most of those courses is largely unknown.  John Bredemus appears to be the only local architecture talent of note, and has his hands on many of the more highly regarded courses built.

Other than these guys, and a handful of courses by Bendelow, there are a number of one- or two-offs by a sampling of other guys.  

In short, it wasn't an area where the architects of the day were spending a lot of time.  Contrast the development of Texas with that of Florida during the same time frame.  There's a reason why so many big names were setting up offices in Florida.  There was plenty of work to be had, and it made for a good balance with the courses they were still building in the Northeast and Midwest during the summers.  


The development of courses in Florida was NOT so much in the private sector, but more driven by resort interests

The centered their time and efforts, and the locations of their work crews, in the areas that would provide the greatest return.  There may have been guys in Texas who had money and could afford to hire high price talent, but unless they could guarantee steady work, it wouldn't make sense for any of those architects to develop the support system in the state that they did in other areas, areas where they were able to dedicate the time and effort needed to produce courses that have become known to be "great."

AWT and Ross disagree with your speculation

You've brought up Winged Foot as an example of a great course that Tillie was able to build on a not so great site.  We could argue over whether Winged Foot is better or worse than anything he had to work with in Texas, but I'd suspect that would just result in another black hole of conjecture.  

So it's your position that nowhere in Texas were there any sites that were superior to the site at Winged Foot.
That's beyond moronic.
Have you ever played WFW and WFE ?

What you can't argue is the quality of the teams available in each location

Of course I can

Tillie was able to work with a team that was familiar with golf course construction when he worked in the Northeast.  

You're stating that AWT didn't work with any teams familiar with golf course construction in Texas.
And that the same was true of Ross.
Pure unsubstantiated fantasy on your part

That would not have been the case in Texas.  

Ross's and AWT's work in Texas prove you wrong

If an architect is only as good as his team (a mantra repeated hereabout with a great deal of frequency),

That's another moronic unsubstantiated theory of yours.
I'm sure that Wilson, Crump and Fownes would take exception.

It's the "architect" that's the creative genius, the visionary.
He's the one who formulates the battle plans.
Not the "team"

 I can easily understand why the architects of the Golden Age produced their best work in the areas where they had access to trusted teams and a developed support system.

Like CB Macdonald in Bermuda & St Louis
Flynn in Denver
MacKenzie in California, Georgia, Michigan, Ohio and Australia
Raynor in California, Georgia, Minnesota
Ross in Iowa, Alabama, California, Colorado, Kansas, Minnesota, Texas, Wisconsin and Cuba ?

Somuch for your traveling "team" theory
 

As I said before, it was one thing to move your team from Westchester County to New Jersey.  Or from Boca Raton to Lake Wales.  Or from Connecticut to Newport.  It was entirely different proposition to move that team halfway across the country.  

Except they went more than halfway across the country, they went all the way across the country, debunking your theory.

Would have been cheaper to hire laborers down there, but the tradeoff is you'd lose the benefit of the experience of guys who had done it before.


Like at Augusta ?
That lack of experience sure compromised that project.

Ditto Monterey Peninsula CC

Green ink to your little heart's delight.

Done, time for you to come up with a viable theory not some cockamamie premise that falls to pieces when the facts are presented

Sven

[Sam Morrow]

I've never gotten an exact answer about where Fort Worth CC was but I've been told by a few old timers that it was about where LaGrave Field is now.

As for the history of Corsicana CC, Willie Lorimer designed the original 9 in 1917. All I know is that he was a Scottish fella and as far as I know it was the only course he ever designed. In 1926 Tilly was brought in to redesign the original 9 and do another 9. The story is that the redesign was supposed to be done by John Bredemus, the reason this didn't take place is by a twist of fate a few years earlier. One of the clubs founding members, HR Stroube was traveling a few years earlier, and befriended AW Tillinghast.

When Tillinghast came to Corsicana he did some work to the existing 9, his biggest changes were moving the green on the par 5 third hole and put in on top of a large mound forming a very cool risk reward par 5. I've seen low handicappers make everything from 2 to 11 because of the dramatic false front. On the 5th he redid the green and made it larger with 3 pronounced tiers. Over the years the third tier was grown out and is now rough over the green but it's still a cool hole.

On the 9 he did there were some interesting features. The 10th green was at one time the largest green in Texas and thought to be the largest in America. It was something along the line of 100 yards deep and 45 yards wide. If you know where to look over the green you can see how far back it went. It goes almost all the way to the current tree line. 12 and 13 are both holes where you can see how large the greens used to be. Over time the club downsized the greens, most of this took place in the early 70's according to current members who grew up out there.

CCC is by no means a great golf course but is a wonderful place to be a member, most folks walk even though there is almost no shade and can be brutally hot in the summer. It's actually the kind of place this site would really enjoy.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

So your contention is that Tillie and Ross both imported full work crews to Texas?

You really do have a sense of humor.

As for Florida, you didn't even know that The Poinciana and The Breakers shared the same course.  Who's teaching who here?

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

What I think you fail to grasp is that every one of the reasons offered in this thread is probably in some way valid.  They are all contributing factors.  You are looking for a single answer.  But as with most things, there are a multitude of factors.

Here are three more for you to chew on, forwarded by another interested party (:

1- Most, if not all, of the "great Texas courses" built back then have either been significantly changed or NLE. Go to the Tillinghast website and look at the 1925 aerial photo of Brook Hollow and look at all those bunkers... Where are they now?

2- Weather does have a major impact there that it doesn't have elsewhere. Use Brook Hollow as an example. It opened for play in 1922. That summer it went through an extreme drought that almost killed off all the turf followed by a late summer/early fall series of showers so severe that most of the turf that was left and the good top soil was washed away and they had to start over the next year. That is a weather pattern that doesn't happen in the northeast of the U.S. where so many of the "great" courses are.

3- Texas is HUGE in comparison to all other states. The population, as larges as it is, is spread out even now and far more back then. This would impact on how many and where wealthy clubs would form and also why good courses would not as there simply wouldn't have been that many upper middle-class players in many areas to fund them.

[Philip Caccamise]

Pat to answer your question with regards to Kentucky earlier. Kentucky just doesn't have many courses period. I forget the number, but its somewhere in the neighborhood of 275. I think that includes par 3 and executive courses. The state has a single Ross, a single Travis and a smattering of Langford's. (and a few faux Maxwells)  Tennesse is a similar story. Georgia ad the Carolina's fared better probably due to ocean and climate. Not sure what happened to Virginia in the Golden Age.

Is Louisville CC a Travis, or Langford? I've seen it credited both ways. Have not played it, but looks like a Travis.

Indian Hills and Audubon are the only two that I know are definitely Langford. In Lexington, there is 1 Ross, 1 Bendelow, and every other course was built after the golden age. Buck Blankenship probably designed the most courses in the state.

[Sam Morrow]

Sven,

We can thank the Trinity River for why Brook Hollow has changed, same reason Colonial had some changes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What I think you fail to grasp is that every one of the reasons offered in this thread is probably in some way valid. 

Probably in some minute, insignificant way


They are all contributing factors.  You are looking for a single answer. 

That's your erroneous conclusion

But as with most things, there are a multitude of factors.

Here are three more for you to chew on, forwarded by another interested party (:

1- Most, if not all, of the "great Texas courses" built back then have either been significantly changed or NLE.

Why don't you identify for us, those "great Texas courses" you allude to.

Go to the Tillinghast website and look at the 1925 aerial photo of Brook Hollow and look at all those bunkers... Where are they now?

I could say the same of Hollywood and any number of courses.
Go to the 1938 aerial of NGLA, Shinnecock and Southampton, you'll see the same thing, yet, they've retained their greatness.
There's a big difference in Macro and Micro architecture.

2- Weather does have a major impact there that it doesn't have elsewhere. Use Brook Hollow as an example. It opened for play in 1922. That summer it went through an extreme drought that almost killed off all the turf followed by a late summer/early fall series of showers so severe that most of the turf that was left and the good top soil was washed away and they had to start over the next year.


Really, did you ever see the pictures of Seminole when the entire course, save for the two major dunes was under water.

How about the Hurricanes that hit Florida and the south from June to December, almost every year.

Or, the winter the Northeast had this year.

How quickly you forget Hurricane Sandy and the damage to the Northeast.

Interesting how you think that Texas is the only state that suffers bad weather.

You're running out of excuses

That is a weather pattern that doesn't happen in the northeast of the U.S. where so many of the "great" courses are.

No, we enjoy balmy weather 24/7/365.
We never have hurricanes, northeasters, blistering summers and cold harsh winters.


3- Texas is HUGE in comparison to all other states.

Which means that there's alot of great land for golf courses.

The population, as larges as it is, is spread out even now and far more back then.

Not really, it's still epicentered in the cities, same as it was 100 years ago.

This would impact on how many and where wealthy clubs would form and also why good courses would not as there simply wouldn't have been that many upper middle-class players in many areas to fund them.

I keep forgetting that teeming metropolis, Hutchinson, Kansas.

Dallas and Houston and other cities had concentrations of wealth and ample populations to support quality golf courses, but few, if any were created.

I know how difficult it must be concede my points, but, you're running out of lame excuses.

I think the theory I presented is the most plausible, especially when combined with Jeff's.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

Brook Hollow (known as "Texas Pine Valley") and Cedar Crest (host of the '27 PGA) were considered quality (your word from your last post) courses.

If your theory is that Texas didn't "get the golf bug," that is hogwash.  There were 240 golf courses built in Texas prior to 1940.  On a per capita basis, there are only a handful of states that would beat it. 

I'd suggest you go back and peruse some of the Sports pages from the 1920's for the local papers in San Antonio and Dallas.  That would give you a pretty good idea as to whether or not golf was part of the local scene.  As Phil Young noted, "the San Antonio Light newspaper had a daily article about Tillie and his projects for nearly 5 weeks."

Those are facts, not excuses.

Sven

[mike_beene]

Pat, how many times have you played the following? Brook Hollow; Northwood;Preston Trail; Lakewood; Cedar Crest; Dallas CC; Colonial;Shady Oaks. Where do you rate them?

[Tim_Weiman]

Sven,

Texan dislike of any Yankee is legendary, and might partly explain why so few courses were designed by the early masters, since they were mostly from Boston, NYC and areas surrounding.....

Jeff,

Texans may dislike Yankees, but I am pretty sure nobody from Texas has ever been to New York or Philadelphia. How else could one explain why people from Houston, for example, think their city has more good land and courses than NY or Philly?

[mike_beene]

Most Texans are Yankees. I always thought Yankees was the name of a baseball team until I married a Mississippi girl and learned of the War of Northern Aggression

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

So your contention is that Tillie and Ross both imported full work crews to Texas?

Would you cite where I made that statement.
That's your own misrepresentation of my position.

In fact, you've made it a habit of deliberately misstating and misrepresenting my statements and positions and then you go on to construct a counter argument against your deliberate, misrepresentation of my non-position.

You really do have a sense of humor.

You're a little late to the party

As for Florida, you didn't even know that The Poinciana and The Breakers shared the same course.  

Neither did you until you researched it........ and it's totally irrelevant to this discussion other than the fact that you confused their creation with that of private clubs

Who's teaching who here?

That you have to ask the question.......makes the answer obvious

Sven

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike, it's different than it was even 30 years ago when I moved here.  Back then, far north dallas was filled with "transplants" and I knew of areas in other cities that were similar.  If a Yankee moved to certain old neighborhoods, they didn't feel welcome.

Now, it seems transplants are close to equal numbers of "real Texans."  So, I am just imagining that 50 years prior, it was really different, explaining fewer Ross, Tillie, etc. courses.  I am pretty sure there was a big anti NE and pro "do it yourself" bias, which may have limited the architectural heritage, similar to the depression and WWII stopping the Golden Age heritage nearly in its tracks.

As always, just a probably unfounded opinion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, how many times have you played the following? Brook Hollow; Northwood;Preston Trail; Lakewood; Cedar Crest; Dallas CC; Colonial;Shady Oaks. Where do you rate them?[

Mike,

Brook Hollow 4 times and I spent an entire week playing, walking and riding the course
Preston Trail 1 time

I liked both courses.

They wouldn't make the top 25 in the greater NYC Metropolitan area

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I tend to agree with you on the rejection of "Yankee" influence and reliance on home grown talent.

I think that, in conjunction with the lack of outstanding local/regional peer courses helps explain the paucity of great courses in Texas

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, it's different than it was even 30 years ago when I moved here.  Back then, far north dallas was filled with "transplants" and I knew of areas in other cities that were similar.  If a Yankee moved to certain old neighborhoods, they didn't feel welcome.

Now, it seems transplants are close to equal numbers of "real Texans."  So, I am just imagining that 50 years prior, it was really different, explaining fewer Ross, Tillie, etc. courses.  I am pretty sure there was a big anti NE and pro "do it yourself" bias, which may have limited the architectural heritage, similar to the depression and WWII stopping the Golden Age heritage nearly in its tracks.

As always, just a probably unfounded opinion.

As a Californian who lived in Dallas from 1978-1981, I agree with you.  

I think the main answer to the relative paucity of top level classic courses in Texas is that there just wasn't a golf-centric culture there.  Each major city had one or two but those filled the demand.  

[Paul Jones]

Jim
I agree
I answered your question verbally in my first interview 9 years ago:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/mike-nuzzo-april-2005/

And a later answered with a new golf course, Wolf Point, that was built on what some would call a poor site.

I'd like to think we could improve on both, the original written answer to your question, and Wolf Point.

Cheers
Mike

Mike,

I know it has been a while (2005) since you did that interview, but that was a great interview.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bill,

I agree that participation was probably less than the NE, maybe just because of the damn heat, more concentrated wealth vs. NYC etc.  (although there are some early public courses in TX, too)

Hard to know just what effect different wealth levels (as wealthy as Texas Oil was, it still never matched the NYC area) too much heat, Cowboy/Wild West culture, including self reliance mentality, anti-Yankee mentality, poor turf, etc. but I figure they all came into play somehow.

In a lot of ways, Texas was behind the NE, so when the Golden Age came to the NE, it was likely to come to TX later, which of course put it in the depression, WWII, etc.  The general expansion of culture in TX probably came after WWII, and we seem to have more RTJ courses, etc.

Again, just a loose theory, more fun to muse about, but someone will probably put some real research into it.

[Jud_T]

Most truly great courses have some combination of the following:

1.  Built on sand
2.  Temperate climate that allows for cool season grasses.
3.  Very interesting natural topography/landforms.
4.  Ocean views (not my personal criteria)
5.  Wind (see #4)

OK, I know, Winged Foot and Chicago Golf.  These aside, for someone who's only spent a brief amount of time in Texas, it seems they have a lot of #5, but are perhaps a bit lacking in 1-4.  So where are the great sites in Texas that haven't been fully realized by mediocre GCA's?  Where are the great sites that have yet to be developed? The hill country?  Is the real issue simply that the Dallas, San Antonio and Houston metro areas are simply not particularly interesting based on the above criteria, so it shouldn't be a huge surprise that the state isn't teeming with Doak 8s and 9s?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I agree that participation was probably less than the NE, maybe just because of the damn heat, more concentrated wealth vs. NYC etc.  (although there are some early public courses in TX, too)

Hard to know just what effect different wealth levels (as wealthy as Texas Oil was, it still never matched the NYC area) too much heat, Cowboy/Wild West culture, including self reliance mentality, anti-Yankee mentality, poor turf, etc. but I figure they all came into play somehow.

In a lot of ways, Texas was behind the NE, so when the Golden Age came to the NE, it was likely to come to TX later, which of course put it in the depression, WWII, etc.  The general expansion of culture in TX probably came after WWII, and we seem to have more RTJ courses, etc.

Again, just a loose theory, more fun to muse about, but someone will probably put some real research into it.

Or perhaps continue to wildly speculate!   

[BCowan]

Was Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Inverness, Merion, WFW, Chicago, Oak Hill and I could keep going built on sand?  So sick of sand snobs, are we to build cities around sand dunes for golf courses?  Or fly to desolate places for sandy soil golf courses??? 

[Jud_T]

Was Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Inverness, Merion, WFW, Chicago, Oak Hill and I could keep going built on sand?  So sick of sand snobs, are we to build cities around sand dunes for golf courses?  Or fly to desolate places for sandy soil golf courses??? 

For someone who has their panties in a twist about the cost of private golf, what do you think the maintenance budget at the above courses is to achieve approximate F&F playing conditions of you-know-what? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Most truly great courses have some combination of the following:

1.  Built on sand. Augusta ?
2.  Temperate climate that allows for cool season grasses.Augusta ?
3.  Very interesting natural topography/landforms.
4.  Ocean views (not my personal criteria). Pine Valley
5.  Wind (see #4)Pine Valley

OK, I know, Winged Foot and Chicago Golf. 

And a zillion more

These aside, for someone who's only spent a brief amount of time in Texas, it seems they have a lot of #5, but are perhaps a bit lacking in 1-4.  [
If you've only spent a brief amount of time in Texas how can you claim that they are lacking in 1-4 ?
On what basis do you make that claim ?/color]

So where are the great sites in Texas that haven't been fully realized by mediocre GCA's? 

They're all over the state, but you wouldn't know that because you only spent a brief time in Texas.
Have you ever played or walked Brook Hollow ?   Preston Trail ?    Pretty good topography, no ?
Brian

Where are the great sites that have yet to be developed? The hill country? 

They're all over.
Had you spent more than a brief time in Texas you'd know that

Is the real issue simply that the Dallas, San Antonio and Houston metro areas are simply not particularly interesting based on the above criteria, so it shouldn't be a huge surprise that the state isn't teeming with Doak 8s and 9s?

Jud, please confine your replies to subjects you're familiar with.
How can you state that the Dallas area doesn't have interesting topography ?

Have you played Hollywood ? Winged Foot ?  GCGC ? Westhampton ?  Basically flat courses, absent the phantom topography you claim is lacking in the Dallas area!?

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