[mike_beene]

Maybe one of the issues is that we are just now correcting many of our prior errors of thinking that committees could ad hoc change and lengthen courses to compete with the new hot real estate courses. I will speak only for Dallas because I really don't profess to understand more Texas places. Near north Dallas was originally built after the war when ranch house architecture ruled.The old clubs tried to compete with the new real estate developments. Think the TV show Dallas which probably exaggerates but does not totally miss the insecurity we had from being on the plains,  being where Kennedy was shot and handling oil excesses. We even ended up with functional 1950s clubhouses. The old Lakewood clubhouse which burned was beautiful only to be replaced by something very unattractive.Now clubs have become more popular and initiations have gone up substantially just as grasses get better and us air shows up. The timing of Crenshaw and Coore going to Brookhollow in the early 90s and doing a great job led to my club hooking up with them and probably influenced Dallas CC to bring in Fought. Nicklaus much improved the DAC courses. It is my understanding Northwood will do some restorative work. Preston Trail has always felt pretty traditional and actually has a number of hole copies if you look closely as that was the intention to my understanding.What I am saying is that for those who appreciate more minimalist natural architecture, come back and consider what is on the ground now.It is night and day compared to even 10 years ago. And remember that August is really not the high season. Even Dallas National is a challenging golf course if a little severe with the canyons.So it is unfair for me to say that we have always been pretty good. We have not but fresh evaluation is invited. Northwood at 4 years old must have been a hot barren site for a US Open.DAC Blue was a miserably hot PGA site. End of ramble .

[Andy Troeger]

Greg,
You don't get to cheat the statistics. Only ten are current ranked on the modern side--there are plenty of "used to be ranked" courses on these lists, and I believe 1-2 Texas courses that moved in this time around. That's a good number comparatively to the rest of the country--top ten states at least. However, five of the ten are currently #170 or higher on that list. Three of those courses are in the top 100 and none in the top 30, although I would argue that Whispering Pines could be higher.

Lou,
I've lived my entire life in some part of "flyover country" and have played the four courses you mention. I don't see Colonial being in the same class as Riviera, Prairie Dunes, or Southern Hills.  I'd have Riviera and Prairie Dunes really high on my list if not for the kikuyu/gunch factors which drop them into that 30-50 range for me, and Southern Hills enjoys far better terrain than Colonial. I'll be curious if you get much agreement from anyone else that Colonial belongs in that class.

[Andy Troeger]

Just as a question--are most Texas courses built to be tournament/championship style tests? Given the quality of players that come out of the state, I wonder if building "fair" tournament type venues works against the state when it comes to both ratings and GCA'ers that might prefer a bit more charm and whimsy in their golf. 

[Tom_Doak]

However, I lived in Houston for 26 years and agree with those who think there is plenty of excellent golf throughout the state.  Places rarely mentioned here are Waterwood National, where Bill Coore did most of the work in the 1980s as a Pete Dye associate. 

Frank:

I was going to mention Waterwood, but for different reasons.  It shut down a couple of years ago for lack of support from golfers in the area.  I thought that was a cool course, but it didn't seem like enough people cared enough to make the drive.

[Greg Clark]

Andy,

My point wasn't to cheat the statistics, but to point out that 12 separate courses that have been built in the new millennium in Texas are ranked in the top 200 in the GW and GD lists.  I did a quick check (very quick so could have missed one along the way) on GW and since 2000:

Texas - 10
California - 6
Florida - 6
Oregon - 5

No other state has more than 4.  The year 2000 is certainly arbitrary, but that is when things started to really move in the right direction down here.  To your other point - I don't think there is much if any difference between a course ranked 170 and 120.  Or 90 for that matter.  It is only at the top that things really separate themselves.  Texas doesn't have any Cypress Points for sure, but many that have made their mind up about what is in the ground in the state should visit.   They might see it isn't the wasteland that many on this site believe.  

Tom,

What courses have you seen in Texas since your original publication?  It looks like you have been out to Pine Dunes and Wolf Point, but what else?  5 courses is going to sell the state short, but I'd be happy to make some recommendations to fill in the gaps of what you haven't seen.

[mike_beene]

Several questions: what kind of shape is Pine Dunes  in? What do you think of it? I don't see how Colonial is in the same stratus as Whispering Pines which I agree is very good. I have never seen Prairie Dunes but agree that Southern Hills and Riviera are better sites than Colonial.i believe the number of good players from Texas has more to do with two things: the wind which in the spring is severe and the fact that so many good players are around the area which gives confidence, competition, etc.

[Sven Nilsen]

Newport, Rhode Island ?

Pat:

Right there is where I realized it would be impossible to have a reasonable conversation with you on this topic.

Sven

[Andy Troeger]

Greg,
I don't think people are claiming that Texas is a wasteland. The part that surprises me is how few courses in such a big state are truly "great" when viewed on a national scale. To me the term is reserved for the very best, and I don't think that courses in the 2nd 100 on GolfWeek's Modern Listing necessarily qualify.

The greatness issue really isn't confined to Texas. If you look at the southernmost states in the United States, how many of them have truly great courses? South Carolina and Florida have a few each, but given the sheer quantity of courses in those states they should! Georgia has a few. Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana might not have any depending on the criteria--maybe Shoal Creek. Texas we've covered! New Mexico probably doesn't have any, although I'm a homer and like Paa-Ko and Black Mesa a lot. Arizona might not have any either. I like Forest Highlands and We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and others like Desert Forest, but none of them are fixtures on all the top 100 lists. California's best are on the west coast.

It really is amazing (perhaps not surprising, though) how many of the best courses are on the two coasts. I used to try to deny that, but now that I've played quite a few of them it has become hard to argue.

[Greg Clark]

Andy,

I would agree by and large with your last post.  The OP talked about the state not having many courses in the rankings, or that were great or "very good."  We have quite a bit of the later.  Great of course is in the definition.  Where does the designation end? 

[Bill_McBride]

Newport, Rhode Island ?

Pat:

Right there is where I realized it would be impossible to have a reasonable conversation with you on this topic.

Sven

Why just this one?

[Sven Nilsen]

Bill:

It was the most egregious.

I could get past Pat not understanding that Rumford is a suburb of Providence and Edina is suburb of Minneapolis/St. Paul, but trying to claim that a Golden Age architect and his team could get to Newport was somehow a justification as to why they could get to Dallas or Houston was over the top.

Sven

[jeffwarne]

Golf in Texas is an intense, sweaty, physical struggle against the golf course and, often, a pissed-off Mother Nature.  It is the antithesis of a round at SFGC or Quaker Ridge.  Our courses are built on mostly unexciting terrain exposed to the elements.  Those blessed with good topography are usually damned by poor soils, dry conditions, and scarce water for irrigation.  In most places, the wind is nearly always a factor, and when it is not, the bugs, heat and humidity make us wish that it was.  It is no surprise that those weaned on Olympic, CPC, Winged Foot, etc. may have a poor opinion of Texas golf.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I think that the depth and breadth in every category- private, public, resort- here is outstanding.  The pricing is often attractive and there is no question that we breed a very high quality golfer.  Could the state produce so many good players without good architecture?  I think not, unless you believe that "great" gca is of the kind you find mostly in a picture book on your end table as opposed to what you engage in an intense, physical, personal manner.  And it can get very personal here. 

Lou,
I've never played golf in Texas.
but now I most certainly need to
Great post

[Bill_McBride]

Golf in Texas is an intense, sweaty, physical struggle against the golf course and, often, a pissed-off Mother Nature.  It is the antithesis of a round at SFGC or Quaker Ridge.  Our courses are built on mostly unexciting terrain exposed to the elements.  Those blessed with good topography are usually damned by poor soils, dry conditions, and scarce water for irrigation.  In most places, the wind is nearly always a factor, and when it is not, the bugs, heat and humidity make us wish that it was.  It is no surprise that those weaned on Olympic, CPC, Winged Foot, etc. may have a poor opinion of Texas golf.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I think that the depth and breadth in every category- private, public, resort- here is outstanding.  The pricing is often attractive and there is no question that we breed a very high quality golfer.  Could the state produce so many good players without good architecture?  I think not, unless you believe that "great" gca is of the kind you find mostly in a picture book on your end table as opposed to what you engage in an intense, physical, personal manner.  And it can get very personal here. 

Lou,
I've never played golf in Texas.
but now I most certainly need to
Great post

If you want to really understand golf in Texas, read Dan Jenkins' book, Those Dogged Victims of Inexorable Fate, with its hilarious tales of the denizens of Goat Hills in Fort Worth.   Lots of little towns in Texas have hardscrabble nine hole courses, and everyone has a highly competitive invitational where sandbaggers are not tolerated and there is a lot of tobacco juice spat on the greens.   I have never played in one of those but would truly love to. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Newport, Rhode Island ?

Pat:

Right there is where I realized it would be impossible to have a reasonable conversation with you on this topic.

Sven,

Let me enlighten you.

1920 Populations

Newport    30,255,

Dallas       158,976, 

Houston   138,276

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill:

It was the most egregious.

I could get past Pat not understanding that Rumford is a suburb of Providence and Edina is suburb of Minneapolis/St. Paul, but trying to claim that a Golden Age architect and his team could get to Newport was somehow a justification as to why they could get to Dallas or Houston was over the top.

I NEVER claimed that getting to Newport versus getting to Texas was the same thing.
That's your attempt to distort and misrepresent what I stated, which is something that you do with regularity.
Distorting and misrepresenting my position is the only way you can dispute my premise.

I merely responded to your population "centers" theory, by showing that a number of cities had very small  populations when compared to Dallas and Houston, circa 1920.

If those "Golden Age" architects could get to Hutchinson, Kansas, and Tulsa, Oklahoma, I'm pretty sure that they could find their way to the cities in Texas.

Or do you want to claim that those cities had airports in full use with 747's flying out on the hour ?

[Sven Nilsen]

 Pat:

Here's what I said:

"If you map out the locations of the "great" classic era courses, you'll find that they're concentrated around the historic population centers, all of which were a good ways away from the Lone Star State."

Newport is around the historic population centers of Providence, Boston and New York.  No distortion, no misrepresentation.

Sven

[Jud_T]

Sven,

The world's largest ball of twine is located in Cawker City, KS.  I'd have thought there were plenty of immigrants in New York or Boston who were equally capable of rolling string at that time.  Furthermore, this is oddly close to Hutchinson and Prarie Dunes. I think if you dig deeper in the local archives, whose records are still on microfiche, you'll find they both are the result of a series of strange occurrances in the area, all of which eventually lead back to the big hurricane of 5/17/1896.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Here's what I said:

"If you map out the locations of the "great" classic era courses, you'll find that they're concentrated around the historic population centers, all of which were a good ways away from the Lone Star State."

Newport is around the historic population centers of Providence, Boston and New York.  No distortion, no misrepresentation.

Have you ever been to Newport ?

It's hardly "around" Boston, or New York and is a pretty good drive from Providence, especially in 1920.

Next you'll be telling us that Hutchinson, Kansas is "around" Chicago

Sven

[Jud_T]

Pat,

This is ridiculous even by your standards.  Newport is an hour and 23 minute drive from Boston;  4 hours in a vintage model T on dirt roads. And yes, I've been to Newport.  My wife is from Rhode Island and we were married in Newport.

[Jeff Spittel]

Maybe there's something wrong with my interpretation of great courses or maybe it's my pride in my adopted home state, but I happen to think that Colonial's nuance and premium on shotmaking more than qualifies it as great.  

[Jud_T]

Jeff,

Those not inclined to grade inflation would say that something like a Doak 8 would be the hurdle, or perhaps top 30-50 in the country.  There are a lot more really good courses that are 6s and 7s than there are 8s, 9s and 10s.  Not a knock on Colonial, haven't played it, but you have to allow for some separation of area for the rightmost corner of the distribution.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

This is ridiculous even by your standards.  Newport is an hour and 23 minute drive from Boston;  4 hours in a vintage model T on dirt roads. And yes, I've been to Newport.  My wife is from Rhode Island and we were married in Newport.

Yeah, without traffic and if you can get out of Boston.

Now tell us how long a drive it is from New York City.

Then tell us how long a drive it is from North Platte to Mullen

The claim that Newport is "around" Boston and New York is beyond moronic.

And the next time I pose a question to Sven or any other named individual, let them answer for themselves as you're not a mind reader.

[Jud_T]

I'm guessing rush hour traffic in the 20's was a bit more manageable...   

[Jeff Spittel]

Fair enough, Jud. I am probably a bit lenient with my interpretation of what qualifies as great. Colonial isn't top 30-50 quality, but I could happily play it every day.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm guessing rush hour traffic in the 20's was a bit more manageable...   

Especially when they got up to full speed of 25 mph

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