ASGCA meeting in Tulsa this weekend

[Chris Clouser]

Who will be attending the event this weekend?  I'm going to present something with Tripp Davis, but was wondering what GCAs would be there that I can meet and finally put a face with the name.

[Adam Lawrence]

Sadly, I will not be there this year - the first time I have missed the meeting in four years. GCA publisher Toby Ingleton will be representing the magazine though.

[ChipRoyce]

Meeting or golf? Heard that you have a nice rota of courses to go and play

[Tom_Doak]

I'll not be attending, for the 53rd consecutive year. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Chris,

I will be there Sunday and Monday.  Look forward to your presentation.

Looking at the list of attendees, it looks fuller than I thought it might be for such a lackluster "wives destination."

TD - Well, I'll miss you......you should be there!

[Tom_Doak]

Chris,

I will be there Sunday and Monday.  Look forward to your presentation.

Looking at the list of attendees, it looks fuller than I thought it might be for such a lackluster "wives destination."

TD - Well, I'll miss you......you should be there!

Actually, I realized I misspoke:  I was in attendance at the meeting in Palm Springs in 1984, with Mr. and Mrs. Dye, while I was working on the planning for PGA West.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Really?  I was there but don't recall meeting you or anyone mentioning you.  What events did you attend?

[Tom_Doak]

Really?  I was there but don't recall meeting you or anyone mentioning you.  What events did you attend?

I wasn't at too many events because some members didn't think I should be there.  I played golf [with P.B. Dye and Harrison Minchew] at a Ted Robinson course, and I hung around when everyone finished playing LaQuinta (Mountain), when a certain architect accused another of having fudged his score. 

I was also in the meeting where Ed Seay stood up to say that the Society should do something to keep professional golfers from becoming members.  That was priceless.

And I was at the dinner where Dinah Shore was honored (and sang, briefly).  Actually I went to run an errand at her house for her because she had forgotten her change of clothes for after the golf outing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I ran the golf tourney that year....should have seen your name on the pairings.  I do recall setting out pink and blue flags for the women's and men's long drive holes, and finding PB Dye's name on the women's long drive marker. I was so mad that I went to WalMart and bought one of those grossly oversized bra and panty sets to present to him as a prize........everyone laughed at least.

The accuser could have been one of 100.....I am pretty sure the accused could be only one person!

[Brad Klein]

I'll be attending, first time in a while, though not playing golf. I will never forget my amazement at the meeting in Southampton, Long Island, must have been 1992; when the architects were assembling for their tournament two designers in my group (I think it was at Maidstone) couldn't figure out their "handicap" because they didn't know how to convert from "index."

[Joel_Stewart]

I was also in the meeting where Ed Seay stood up to say that the Society should do something to keep professional golfers from becoming members.  That was priceless.

Interesting that he started working with Arnold Palmer in the early 1970's and must have seen the light at that time.

My guess is this meeting will be like every other meeting. Discussion groups on the following,

A. Bitch and moan about how bad the industry is.
B. Why nobody wants to pay the architect.
C. Gossip about who is working on what.
D. No rough at Pinehurst, the unthinkable.
E. How do I get a high paying job in China.
F. Blame Gil Hanse for the Olympic disaster.
G. Play Southern Hills and guess who the architect is?

The ASGCA is worse than the US Congress, keep the status quo.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Joel,

And what do you base that assessment on?

All I know for 99% certain is that Carnac will make an appearance to lighten the mood.......

A. "Urine"
Q. TWO words most tour pros will never hear from ASGCA......

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel,

And what do you base that assessment on?

Watching the ASGCA (closely) for 20 years and talking with several members.

Take a look at the below comment from the ASGCA web site when Rick Robbin was elected president;

"As ASGCA President, Robbins said, “I want to work with our friends at the Allied Associations of Golf to find creative ways to combat the three primary issues that prevent golf from growing: the difficulty of the game for most players, the cost to play and the time it takes to complete an average round."

That's ground breaking news!  Please thank him on all golfers behalf for thinking outside the box and providing answers. 

Here are a few for Carnac.

A: R-O-L-A-I-D-S
Q: How an ASGCA architect spells minimalist

A: Shake and Bake
Q: Doak and C&C course combinations

A: Deep Freeze
Q: ASGCA fees since the recession



 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Joel,

I agree that the HQ generated press releases all take on a similar tone.  When I was Prez, I tried to write most of my own to at least sound a bit different.  After I got in some hot water on a few occasions, they went right back to writing the more generic kind at HQ.....

Carnac might actually use the last one! In the real depths he did this one:

A. "2 for $20"
Q. Name a recent Domino's special and Forrest Richardson fee quote (Sorry Forrest, had to pick a name and happened to be looking at you at the time)

It does help to laugh at yourself during tougher times.

[Joel_Stewart]

I prefer if you use the 1st.  Probably most won't get it.

I found these on a web site and took the liberty to modify them.

A:  White Bunker Sand
Q: What do you get if you open the trunk of an ASGCA car.

A: De-frost.
Q: On a cold morning, what forms on de-grass?

A: Crabgrass.
Q: What do crabs get high on?

A: "Follow the golden brick road."
Q: What are good directions to Tom Fazios office?

A: A full moon
Q: What would you see if Bill Love dropped his pants?

A: 20,000 Leagues Beneath the Sea.
Q: Where is the ASGCA headed?

A: Over 15 billion served.
Q: What will be written on Rees Jones tombstone?

CARNAC: May a swarm of gay chiggers open a disco at your golf club.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Actually used versions of "defrost" and "crabgrass" in the past.  Have taken our shots at the Faz and Rees, among others:

A. Small 3rd World County, Medium Size Govt Agency, and Large Local Agency
Q. Name three things with budgets smaller than a Fazio golf course (he laughed....)

Your take on ASGCA is at worst horse feathers, and at best, far too cynical, especially when judging with so little information from the outside....ASGCA is as strong as ever, outside the confines of Golf Club Atlas.  But, always good to see another Carnac fan.  I am wondering it it needs to be retired now that it is two hosts past its originator......

[Joel_Stewart]

Your take on ASGCA is at worst horse feathers, and at best, far too cynical, especially when judging with so little information from the outside....ASGCA is as strong as ever, outside the confines of Golf Club Atlas. 

When the ASGCA does something, anything to help the game and improve architecture I'll change my view. The members I have spoken with cannot figure out why they pay dues and should they continue being members.    The ASGCA does (IMHO) absolutely nothing.

Here are some perfect Carnac questions.

A: Zero
Q: Number of ASGCA members admonished for poor design, routing, shaping, or irrigation planning.

A:  Zero
Q: Number of ASGCA members expelled from the organization for poor work.

A: Zero
Q: Committees within the ASGCA to review and evaluate fellow ASGCA members work.

[Jeff_Brauer]

While it's clear that Joel Stewart won't be impressed with anything ASGCA does, I will file a short report on a nice meeting.

First, good to see Ian Andrew there, and he helped put together some great formal and informal educations sessions.

Among those was gca.com's own Chris Clouser, who teamed with Tripp Davis to share their insights on the work of Perry Maxwell.  While I had read his book, and probably knew most of that, it was well received and good information for members who hadn't.  I was so taken by playing some Maxwell courses and learning, that I stopped by Dornick Hills on the way home and toured his first course again, stopped at his grave to pay respects, etc.  Today, I am checking Chris's book again especially for the DH map of the original bunkering scheme.  The shadows of many of those former bunkers are out there, even if they were long gone probably by the depression.

Also got some good stuff on new monitoring techniques for golfers,  water use, etc. that can help us all design using less water.

We also had discussions on the large cup, mirroring discussions here.

Of general interest was hearing Tom Watson't thoughts on the Ryder Cup and his near win in 2009.  Besides a "new putting move" that gave him confidence on the greens, he said so few competitors had actually played Turnberry, and the winds during the practice rounds were SW, and turned to NW on Thursday, making him perhaps the only guy in the field who had played Turnberry that way.  He said he told his wife (to disbelief) that he had a good chance to win the Open.  The rest is history, but I always love hearing stuff like that.

Golf was good, with a host of Maxwell courses being optional, and then RTJII Patriot and of course, Southern Hills on the main meeting days.  Some of the guys got up to Prairie Dunes just before the meeting.

All in all, a nice meeting.  Learned a lot, had some fun, met up again with my peers.  I think I will do it again next year in San Diego!  It will be a chance for my peers to play one of my works (La Costa)

All others also seemed to enjoy the meeting, and understand just what the value of ASGCA is, in direct opposition to the views of Mr. Stewart, who seems to know exactly what goes on, despite never having been there, or never having been a member.

[paul cowley]

Ditto that Carnac! I had a grand time networking and exchanging ideas with peers, meeting new people in the industry and getting a feel for the pulse of things in a golf centric environment. More than anything its about the people and getting to know the person behind the name...which can be very interesting in so many ways! (I am trying to figure out how Joel might measure up in person now that I know his name) I could go on but for what purpose? Make Joel like me? Ha.  Jeff this is about what I mentioned to you about the site and its shortcomings. Why bother to share...life's definitely getting shorter...and I bore much easier. And to think I used to give a report on GCA of the meetings daily kaoss not so many years back.

Remember the night that a swing oiled Mr Palmer was hitting hard 7 irons into the fireplace at the Pine Crest Inn? I sure do!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

Exactly!  I can understand people having a different opinion, and Joel is certainly entitled to his.  There have been several anti-ASGCA threads over the years (mostly Tommy Nockers in the early days!) and I always defend us because I have had nothing but positive experiences over 33 years.  But, a few here are against the group (I presume, but don't know) because Doak, Forse and/or a few others aren't members for one reason or another.

I should have added "Playing with Paul Cowley" as one of the highlights.

Another is taking one of the young new members over to talk to the Jones and Jay Morrish.  I recall Pete Dye, Rees and others taking a green as peas me, sitting next to me, and talking issues of the day.  It doesn't get any better than that.  I could listen to old golf architecture stories all night.....and almost did!  Good to help the next generation get to meet some current legends and form some memories.  While maybe not quite as dramatic as Pete Dye meeting Donald Ross a few years before his death, I like the idea of continuing the links to the old guys in part via oral histories.

I do recall Pinehurst and Arnie.  Mostly I recall my son turning me down to attend as a guest, and missing his chance to chip with Arnie.

But, what the heck, we are just a bunch of yahoos to some guys.  I don't care.  I know what I get out of it.

Hope to see you next year, if not sooner.

[Joel_Stewart]

Exactly!  I can understand people having a different opinion, and Joel is certainly entitled to his.  There have been several anti-ASGCA threads over the years (mostly Tommy Nockers in the early days!) and I always defend us because I have had nothing but positive experiences over 33 years. 

Why would I have anything against the ASGCA?   I would like them to succeed and prosper.

My feelings are based on members that are inept, ignorant and not qualified for membership based on shoddy work, sometimes unscrupulous dealings and otherwise ineptitude especially in restorations.   Furthermore, the ASGCA which carries on this attitude as a governing body is nothing more than an old boys fraternity with no forward thinking or initiatives to improve architecture or the game.  The ASGCA has no benchmark for evaluating work or grading fellow members on their work.

This years meeting is no exception.  The BIG issue is water management.  Groundbreaking news.  Architects have been discussing this since the 1920's.  This meeting could have been completed in 2 minutes!  "Less water is good, more water is bad".  Water costs money, using less water helps courses become more financially stable. You would think the 175 or so ASGCA members would understand this?  Its common sense.  I suspect they paid a consultant $10,000 to explain this to the architects.   Whats ironic is that 99% of the architects sub out irrigation to specialists and don't give a rats ass.  They do care that their fee may be effected by increased irrigation consultants.  I can already see the agenda for next year convention in San Diego, "Fertilizer", it makes grass green.

Chris Closures presentation may have been the most enlightening.  Why? Because here is a guy that put in the time and effort to research Perry Maxwell so that Keith Foster could do a remarkable job in restoring Southern Hills.  Very few architects are willing to rummage for days through old files and plans, go visit other golf courses or god forbid, pay a historian to do the work.   Most ASGCA members are lazy, or have an ego that they know best and don't care about the old architects.  Furthermore, many don't have the knowledge or patience to try and understand classic design. I dealt for a year and have first hand knowledge of a former ASGCA president who is the poster child for stupidity on renovations and poor work. 

I have been going to corporate conventions for 30 years and the agenda is the same in almost every industry.  Play golf and schmooze. The ASGCA gathering is no different.  The industries that I work in are not crumbling unlike golf and the ASGCA takes no blame in the downfall of golf.  Making the courses are harder, longer and with higher construction costs and maintenance are not any ASGCA members fault.  The ASGCA members are fast to point fingers but take no blame.

Jeff needs to look in the mirror and see he and his fraternity brothers are part of the problem.   Sadly they are part of the solution as well. 

Jeff, whatever juice the ASGCA has brainwashed you with, you need to stop.  You know the real score.  Wake up.

Lastly, I have given you ample opportunities over the years to give examples of anything the ASGCA has accomplished or been the leader in.  You have never been able to come up with anything, ever.  The ASGCA are sheep, they are followers not leaders.

[paul cowley]

Jeff - one of the special aspects of ASGCA meetings is that your conversations with other members...whether about design, golf stuff or whatever...are face to face...and with people who are designing and building golf courses first hand, actually creating something in the ground...which is far different than some of the types on this site that lurk behind the anonymity of their keyboards, creating cyber crap.

Joel...UNLESS you are really a HOT Southern Bell, who really spells her name Jo-El...and is really just funning us because you find people who build s++t out of dirt sexy and exciting (call me)...THEN I'm not going to write another word, or type another letter about you as it's a pure waste of time.

[Mike_Young]

Joel,
There are plenty of good people in the ASGCA.  Many are qualified.   The biggest issue I see with such a group is when a city such as Wilmington, NC specifies in a bid that a person must be a member of such an organization and is never told that such an organization is a discriminating organization.  That is not an issue that should affect ASGCA in anyway but it can be very dangerous for a municipality. 

Let's see. We have two of the greatest golfers of all time chipping in a fireplace and telling of an Open at Turnberry.  That had to be quite a memory.  But with GREATEST respect to  the two as golfers, not sure they can take a course from beginning to end. 

While these types of issues may not be seen from inside, they are the types of issues that outsiders will see differently.
I could tell you much more first hand but it would not be fair to the majority of the good guys in the ASGCA.
It is what it is...

[paul cowley]

Mike, you know where I stand and its always been with you. I'm ready if you are.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, you know where I stand and its always been with you. I'am ready if you are.