OT (?): The Etiquette of Access

[John Kavanaugh]

Lou,

I would tell you to hike up your shorts and get over it but that ship has long passed.

[SteveOgulukian]

Please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will) but a believe that someone started a post a couple of years ago about an open slot to play at a very exclusive club on the Monterey Peninsula and he was viewed as a gracious hero, not a villain.  I tired searching for the thread but came up empty handed.  Does anyone recall this?

[Tim Martin]

Lou,

Why do you continue to think that clubs with zero financial worries give a damn about your guest fees?  They over the long run lose money by hosting unaccompanied guests.  The only reason they charge anything at all is give the ignorant masses a measuring stick on which to base the value of their experience.  If it was free most people would leave disappointed.  In this way they do guests a favor by charging them.

John,

Despite my education and 40+ years of experience in business and golf, I suppose I am just a dumb ass.  If you are interested, we'll broach the subject this summer with someone we both know who you might find more knowledgeable and credible on these matters.

Tim Martin,

Do you truly believe that if Terry and John wouldn't have commented that this thing would have blown up?  Using the DG was not a good way of making up the foursome, and the subsequent brouhaha has probably been a good learning experience for the gentleman and others not privy to the sensitivities that plague a few on this site.  Some seem to look for ill motives wherever they can.  When I read the original thread, my first reaction was, wow, how cool is this.  Then, having been on this site for more than 10 years and knowing some of the characters, my next thought was "on shit, he is going to get inundated and then the bitching begins".  These two threads have taught me that I am not cynical enough.  What a complicated world we live in.

Nigel,

The people who look at the world like John are very few.  Guest fee pricing vary with the objectives of the club, but typically involve the needs and preferences of the members, its financial and tax situations, and seasonal considerations.  Some clubs don't want much play, even from members.  Others prefer a fuller tee sheet and are welcoming of guests.

What I believe is that the original poster sealed his own fate by the way in which he went about trying to fill the foursome. If you want to hang it on someone other than him then be my guest. I have set up unaccompanied rounds for people and I wouldn't want to read about them trying to fill the foursome on GCA. I have been solicited repeatedly and unabashed by guys I had never even shared a PM with and some I have accommodated and some I haven't. What I have learned is that the guys that you have little or no connection to have the most moxy when framing their request.

[George Pazin]

People honestly think there is something distasteful about this scenario?

Sadly, yes. Some people are cynical - doesn't make them bad, or good, just different.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thou shalt not publicly advertise access to any private club to which thou belongeth not.

Why?

Assume this scenario: you write to a club, saying you'd love to play there. They say: sure, you can bring 3 others if you'd like but will pay an unaccompanied rate of X. You have 2 mates keen and want to offer it up to a 4th. You figure it would be cool to throw it out to the GCA brethern - GCA being a specialist website for people who are interested in Golf Architecture and has a small readership (the view counts on the threads don't lie) - you make a GCA'er happy, the club gets some unaccompanied revenue and everyone goes about their business.

People honestly think there is something distasteful about this scenario?

Steve: I remember the thread to which you're referring but won't mention the recipient of the good will or the person offering in case I get them in trouble - it was fantastic. 

There are clubs and then there are clubs.  I know exactly the thread you guys are talking about.  Too bad the hogs ate that goose before our new members could have experienced the same hospitality.  Anyone ever wonder why those trips dried up?

[Lou_Duran]

John Kavanaugh,

Please translate.  It is not manly to take pot shots at people and then just walk off. 

Tim Martin,

You must live in a very different world, or perhaps your perceptions are very unlike mine.  I am not a member of a prestigious club, but the numerous inquiries I've entertained over the years have never been overly demanding nor cheeky.  And not a single one of those which I was able to accommodate personally was in any way unpleasant.

Brian S,

The club in question like Sand Hills is a top 10 U.S. and its guest policies are tight if not insurmountable (it allowed unaccompanied play).  Perhaps the two or three who had issues with the deleted thread didn't see it.  Or maybe it is a case of situational ethics.  I know the poster of the other thread and his motives were above board.

[George Pazin]

What I believe is that the original poster sealed his own fate by the way in which he went about trying to fill the foursome. If you want to hang it on someone other than him then be my guest. I have set up unaccompanied rounds for people and I wouldn't want to read about them trying to fill the foursome on GCA.

The thing is, Tim, this thread was someone who didn't grow up in the private club culture and simply wanted to share his good fortune with others whom he thought would appreciate the opportunity. He didn't do it for ANY nefarious reasons, as far as I can tell; he simply wanted to give something in return for his good fortune. If you can't relate to that feeling, you likely have never been in the position.

I have, one time:

I've been on this site for 14+ years, long enough to have gotten a benefit of the doubt. I asked for access one time, and honestly, I felt kinda sick doing so; it was for an acquaintance who had terminal cancer. I didn't feel comfortable asking (via PM), and I was nauseous for a 30 minutes until I received a phone call from the person I asked that put me completely at ease.

You'd like to think people would give folks the benefit of the doubt, but this is the teens (can't say it's the Nineties anymore, or the 2000s), and there will always be people who think the worst, given any situation. And sometimes they're right.

I doubt this was one of those times.

My own golden rule: shut the heck up. I don't know anything about private clubs, and it's so far removed from my own personal experience that I don't even know where to begin. I've been to elite private clubs, and in spite of the fact that I graduated from an elite private college, I felt completely out of place.

And yes, I'm aware that I violated that rule both yesterday and today...

[John Kavanaugh]

John Kavanaugh,

Please translate.  It is not manly to take pot shots at people and then just walk off. 

You, like many older gentlemen, wear your shorts a little high.  Sorry, I should have told you in person. I've never been good at giving fashion advice.

[Jud_T]

The bottom line is that regardless of whether he had the motives of a saint, it simply wasn't appropriate and he paid the price accordingly.  Live and learn, as they say...

[Bryan Icenhower]

I do occasionally worry about being mis-perceived as access-seeking (when if I were in fact doing I would be quite explicit about it!).

I 100% concur with this, and it is ashame.  I have gotten out of this site more than I could ever get back, and I have not played a single round with anyone at their home course.  I have learned a ton and thats what I have gotten from this site. 

I travel extensively for work, and when I have time to play golf this site is the first place I come to research courses in the area I am traveling too.  I have never once started a "Coming to x, any suggestions" thread - but I would be lying if I said I didn't want to.  I most often want to ask what people think, not because it leads to a round at a private club, because it opens my eyes to course I would never have thought about or heard of if I hadn't followed along the DG.  If I hadn't have stumbled upon this site I would still be playing all the TPCs around the country. 

That being said, some of the threads that give reviews on local courses are old.  IN those instance, I would like to start a thread asking for opinions, but I will never start a thread like that b/c of the fear of getting tar and feathers hil;e have to wear the Scarlet AW on my chest. 

And that is ashame, b/c my guess is that a lot of people think the same way that I do, happy to answer questions about local golf, and more than happy to host you at any club they belong to.  I would love if you asked me, and if I am not traveling extensively, then it would be a pleasure to host you.  I think most of us here are the same.  But I probably will never find out.

I truly have enjoyed playing with all of the GCAers I have played with (albeit a small sample size), and my wanting to host whomever asks is my way of trying to pay back everything I have gotten from this site.  No strings attached, just my own personal way of saying thanks.

[Tim Martin]

Tim Martin,

You must live in a very different world, or perhaps your perceptions are very unlike mine.  I am not a member of a prestigious club, but the numerous inquiries I've entertained over the years have never been overly demanding nor cheeky.  And not a single one of those which I was able to accommodate personally was in any way unpleasant.

Lou-I am a member of a college golf course so you can attach any level of prestige you would like. I will take you at your word that you haven't had any unpleasant dealings with requests to accommodate others and that is a good thing. I would ask you to take me at my word that I have had very different dealings and not try to paint my impression as "living in a very different world or perhaps having perceptions that are very unlike yours." Some of the stuff has been so over the top that is truly comical and if the access seekers did even a smidgen of leg work on their own they would have found that the course is extremely accommodating to unaccompanied guests at rates that are far below those of comparable private clubs. I have had many GCA guys as guests and have mostly enjoyed those rounds. That said I don't think that the "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" necessarily applies to access. 

[Tim Martin]

What I believe is that the original poster sealed his own fate by the way in which he went about trying to fill the foursome. If you want to hang it on someone other than him then be my guest. I have set up unaccompanied rounds for people and I wouldn't want to read about them trying to fill the foursome on GCA.

The thing is, Tim, this thread was someone who didn't grow up in the private club culture and simply wanted to share his good fortune with others whom he thought would appreciate the opportunity. He didn't do it for ANY nefarious reasons, as far as I can tell; he simply wanted to give something in return for his good fortune. If you can't relate to that feeling, you likely have never been in the position.

I have, one time:

I've been on this site for 14+ years, long enough to have gotten a benefit of the doubt. I asked for access one time, and honestly, I felt kinda sick doing so; it was for an acquaintance who had terminal cancer. I didn't feel comfortable asking (via PM), and I was nauseous for a 30 minutes until I received a phone call from the person I asked that put me completely at ease.

You'd like to think people would give folks the benefit of the doubt, but this is the teens (can't say it's the Nineties anymore, or the 2000s), and there will always be people who think the worst, given any situation. And sometimes they're right.

I doubt this was one of those times.

My own golden rule: shut the heck up. I don't know anything about private clubs, and it's so far removed from my own personal experience that I don't even know where to begin. I've been to elite private clubs, and in spite of the fact that I graduated from an elite private college, I felt completely out of place.

And yes, I'm aware that I violated that rule both yesterday and today...

George-This guy has already had his knuckles rapped so I am not looking to pile on. That said he has had a history of access seeking and has been repeatedly rebuked both online and by PM. That is merely some context to add to your base of knowledge when assessing the situation. I didn't grow up as a private club member either so to paint me differently is off the mark. Hopefully he gets another shot but if nothing else he has surely learned a valuable lesson.

[Sven Nilsen]

I love it when GCA gets meta.

Some people use this site to talk about golf architecture, some use it for other purposes (including just finding a place to argue).

If you pay a modicum of attention, you can figure out what most people are up to pretty quickly.  When a new participant shows up, offers little in the way of discussion regarding architecture and constantly talks about the courses they "want" or "need" to see, its pretty clear they're more interested in using this site to line up golf at courses they couldn't otherwise get on than to learn.

Playing golf with other GCA members is great, but it is not the primary purpose of this forum.  

I think most of us would be better off if we spent more time reading and less time typing.

Sven

[Lou_Duran]

John Kavanaugh,

Please translate.  It is not manly to take pot shots at people and then just walk off. 

You, like many older gentlemen, wear your shorts a little high.  Sorry, I should have told you in person. I've never been good at giving fashion advice.

There you go again, trying to be so droll!  If placed side by side, I suspect that most folks would put us as contemporaries.  And though you may spend much more on all your logoed shirts from famous courses, I doubt that the same would look at either of us and comment favorably on our sartorial splendor.  But, bypassing all the clever metaphors, it is not me who goes out of his way to think badly of others, bring them to the woodshed publicly, and worse, attack their character.  Being your apologist as I've been a number of times, I am asked occasionally why I bother.  In jest, back in your Barney Frank days, I asked you if you were man or beast.  I could use some help here.  Any suggestions?

[Lou_Duran]

Tim Martin,

I am not questioning your word.  I am telling you that my experience has been totally different and that perhaps the clubs I've belonged to might account for some of it.  You may wish to consider that there could also be some real differences in how we perceive this whole access thing.  I am not at all bothered when someone from the DG sends me an IM and asks me about golf in Texas or about playing with me while visiting in Dallas.  There is not but a handful that I wouldn't go out of my way to help.  My reaction to the original post was that it was a cool thing to do, them on second thought, I hoped that the guy had discussed his approach to recruit players with his host.  I was shocked by Terry Lavin's caustic reply and saddened by John Kavanaugh's.

Perhaps the rules that govern such things as gaining access to private courses are more strict than I understand.  From what I've experienced in my 40+ years in the game and 12+ years on the site, these appear to be highly dependent on the individuals involved and the situation.  For me, providing access when I can is such a little thing at no real cost to the courses that it doesn't deserve spending the time I already have on these two threads.  And in those situations when it is difficult or impossible, saying "No" should not be a big deal.  We are all big boys here.

Sven,

I would modify your last sentence to "spent more time PLAYING and reading, and less typing".

As to the purposes for people frequenting this site, if you believe what you wrote, I would think you would want people to know what they are talking about.  Reading is no substitute for playing and it is natural that those who are interested in gca would want to play the courses we discuss.  Now, if some of you are more comfortable with code words and backroom access channels, I can understand how that might work better.  That approach has its own shortcomings, but perhaps it has a lower risk of offending those who are sensitive to this sort of thing.

[Sven Nilsen]

Lou:

I agree that playing the game and different courses is a big part of the conversation that takes place hereabouts.  I don't agree with what I believe you were suggesting that this site should be a tool to facilitate the play of those courses, especially for someone who has yet to demonstrate an interest ior ability to participate in the conversation in a meaningful manner.

Sven

[Amol Yajnik]

As a relatively new member of this forum, I appreciate the thoughts of many of the more established members in this thread.  I've always wondered about how private club members approach those that want to play their courses, and it seems like the overriding theme for people wanting to play private courses is "don't ask for an invite, wait for someone to invite you." As a public golfer for now and the foreseeable future, it's a good mantra for me to keep in mind.

[Nigel Islam]

I think there are a lot of private members that would be more than willing to help someone out. It's really a common sense thing. If someone seems legit and wants to play a nice course I would love to help them out as long as it fits the rest of my life. I reached out to Jason last year bc I was going to Cincy for a few days. I had no idea he was a club member, and he had no idea I was. Wound up going home and home, and I think it worked out quite nicely. Bottom line if you reach out to somebody on the site about a game don't assume it's going to be on their top 100 course. You could wind up playing a municipal course instead. For me, I am good with that.

[Terry Lavin]

I would venture to say that the overwhelming majority of club members here have hosted gca members at their club when the other gca guy was in their town. That has always happened here. And it's almost always done without any access whoring at all. Someone says they're gonna be in Nashville and the Tennessee guys start PM'ing. The problem starts when a relative newbie starts all manner of not so gentle pleading for access and then doesn't listen when cautioned to stop. That is what happened here. Use the search function if you don't believe me. Or I can give you a cut and paste of the type of posts that led to the rebuke. The Greatest Hits (hit-ons is a better phraseology).

[Nigel Islam]

Terry, I think it just goes back to using common sense. It's a privilege to post here and participate. Anything else that comes my way is just gravy. I don't want to see an end to the generosity here.  If you are going to inquire about access be smart, and vague about it. Don't EXPECT access just because you are on the forum. As John said earlier, "Don't kill the golden goose."

[Jaeger Kovich]

The real key and etiquette of access is being a really good thank you note writer.

[Joel Zuckerman]

Please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will) but a believe that someone started a post a couple of years ago about an open slot to play at a very exclusive club on the Monterey Peninsula and he was viewed as a gracious hero, not a villain.  I tired searching for the thread but came up empty handed.  Does anyone recall this?

I have not visited the site in a couple of weeks and consequently have no knowledge of this recently deleted thread that you are referring to.
However it was my offer in 2012  that was referred to by Steve O as quoted above, with no intention of being hero or villain, just a unique circumstance that allowed me to bring a guest.

The professional invited me out, and surprised me by generously asking me to bring along a companion. I made a couple of inquiries to friends or acquaintances the Bay Area, but none could adjust their schedules. Honestly, I did not think twice about putting it out this public forum---we all love golf, great architecture, and everyone I've met here has been pleasant at minimum, most downright enjoyable.

I am always happy to host in and around Savannah, this was much the same thing, albeit on the opposite coast on a one off basis.

[BCowan]

Perhaps I've failed the Clayman test, or maybe it has something to do with Andrew Buck's strategy, but I can't remember the last unwelcomed request for access coming my way.  I could be wrong, but I suspect that the number who take offense from these types of requests are outnumbered by a factor of 20 to 1.  Really, SL, you would put an Email or IM asking to play your course analogous to someone inviting himself to your house for dinner?  We do live in different worlds!

Re: the thread "requiring" this one, a fellow GCAer has the opportunity to bring a foursome to a word-class golf course known to most here as a club of the highest standards which welcomes its guests to enjoy the whole experience sans formality and pretense.  The gentlemen extends this opportunity to members of this DG with no express or implied quid pro quo/hidden agenda.  But no good deed should go unpunished, he gets blasted by two highly-privileged, self-appointed "keepers of the gates", and the thread is pulled.

Perhaps the originator erred in his open approach.  Or maybe he had permission from the sponsoring member.  Did the critics know the circumstances, the specifics?  Would it have been more couth for the guy to have gone to the site's power brokers/facilitators to fill the foursome?  And what about the inherent quid pro quos/conflicts of interest with this method?  Me, I found his very "democratic" approach well-intentioned and refreshing.

Dick Youngscap is a great friend of golf.  He has sponsored a number of GCAers over the years as unaccompanied guests.  As noted earlier, the club has a great reputation for being welcoming to its guests, member-accompanied or not.  With a short season and a difficult labor market, guest play is likely an important part of its financial well-being.  It is a policy which seems to work for the club, offering the chance to play a great course to some who aren't well-connected without detracting from the membership experience (unless one values exclusivity very highly- I don't).

To those who are offended by requests for access, is having to say "No" that inconvenient?  For the most part, we know who you are and I suspect that you are not bothered often.  Does a public chastisement of an "offender" really elevate you or the site?  Aren't there other bigger problems in your life demanding attention?

By the way John Kavanaugh, not that you were referring to me, but we never left Cypress Point in a hurry.  As you know, when you play unaccompanied, the caddies set the pace and ensure that you're gone by noon.  On our day, we had a leisurely lunch elsewhere after our round with the Great Man, then made a mad dash to play Olympic when a member found out we were heading to the airport and insisted we change our flights.  It remains the greatest day of golf in my life, and all due to the great generosity and courtesy of members of this fantastic website.

''Now, if some of you are more comfortable with code words and backroom access channels, I can understand how that might work better.  That approach has its own shortcomings, but perhaps it has a lower risk of offending those who are sensitive to this sort of thing.''

Great post Lou! 

[Terry Lavin]

.

[BHoover]

I think we've all probably said things in posts that could be construed, rightly or wrongly, as access-seeking, even if that was not the intent.