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John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2014, 09:15:26 PM »
...no legitimate reason...

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2014, 10:23:59 PM »
Move to the UK where all this BS is 99.9% irrelevant.

As much as I prefer the manner in which any visitor willing to pay an extra high greens fee can play the best courses in the UK and Australia... I always have to chuckle when Americans get scolded by our British friends for maintaining stupid traditions... God save the Queen!

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2014, 10:25:18 PM »
If you are already a member at a club, you can get on 95% of what you want to play with a simple request from your Pro.  You may not be in love with the price you get back, but access, pretty much yes.
 
As others have said, I think it is pretty obvious when the person is about the access.
 


Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

BCowan

Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2014, 10:33:53 PM »
Move to the UK where all this BS is 99.9% irrelevant.

As much as I prefer the manner in which any visitor willing to pay an extra high greens fee can play the best courses in the UK and Australia... I always have to chuckle when Americans get scolded by our British friends for maintaining stupid traditions... God save the Queen!
+1 Aussie Rules! 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2014, 11:28:24 PM »
With me
- if you are interested in playing at my club, send me a message.  I will accomodate you if I can. 
- I am not a big fan of "plus one" guests. 
- don't be a pain about scheduling. 
- Plan on paying
- follow any rules I highlight for you.
- As host, I am essentially vouching for you.  Make me happy I am doing so.
- Have fun while we play.

I have been hosting GCA people for ten years and I have enjoyed every single experience.


With others:

Don't inquire generally

Don't inquire directly unless you know the potential host, and know he is ok with you asking.

Ask about the shoe rule.  It is the first rule you can screw up and, while it does not matter at most clubs, if it matters, it matters.  Most clubs put their guest rules on their website, but you should probably ask the host beforehand any way.

If a club is one to which everyone wants access, wait to be invited.

"Wait to be invited" is a good rule in general. 

If you want to play some nice courses, play in one of the GCA-sanctioned events.  Kings Putter, Dixie Cup, Midwest Mashie, Buda Cup.....
You'll play some nice courses and meet some nice people. 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2014, 01:11:44 AM »
Threads like this, and what the other one deteriorated into, go a long way in explaining why I play more and more of my golf at Goat Hill- ::) ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2014, 01:27:19 AM »

Any of you post about perhaps coming to Australia, you will get inundated by offers, some of them even from members of courses you might want to play at.  You will be hosted, wined and dined, even if you are not a member anywhere we might want to play should we venture across the Ocean.


Mark,

That sounds about right, and a wonderful round it was.  Aussies seem to relish the opportunity to show off their great golf courses to others.

Personally, I couldn't care less if somebody I don't know from this board contacts me to play my home club, as long as they respect the rules of my club and the game, we are good.

Cheers,
TK
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 01:29:59 AM by Tyler Kearns »

Mark_F

Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2014, 01:27:44 AM »
Threads like this, and what the other one deteriorated into, go a long way in explaining why I play more and more of my golf at Goat Hill- ::) ::)


Can you get me on there Jeff?

Mark_F

Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2014, 01:29:26 AM »
Mark,

That sounds about right, and a wonderful round it was.  Aussies seem to relish the opportunity to show off their great golf courses to others. 

Cheers,
TK

Well, Melburnians do Tyler - makes up for the fact that there's nothing much else to see here. ;D


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2014, 01:35:25 AM »
Threads like this, and what the other one deteriorated into, go a long way in explaining why I play more and more of my golf at Goat Hill- ::) ::)


Can you get me on there Jeff?

I have to check my list and see if you qualify. ::) ;) ;D

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2014, 01:44:30 AM »
Is it just because you're all a bunch of lawyers who don't want to schlep it with tradesmen and podiatrists?

I quite enjoyed playing one time with an Australian podiatrist! 
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2014, 03:22:14 AM »
Isn't Melbourne a small town outside Sydney??
Cave Nil Vino

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2014, 04:00:52 AM »
Isn't Sydney a small town across the water from San Francisco?
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2014, 05:39:55 AM »
It does help somewhat that your typical old Australian club will have far more members than the US equivalent - typically say 1500 for your average metro 18 hole track.   We are not so precious about keeping the peasants out, and so it is not bad manners to ask, in fact we are often rather chuffed to be asked.

Mark_F

Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2014, 06:02:58 AM »
I quite enjoyed playing one time with an Australian podiatrist! 

Yes, he's said more than once how much he enjoyed your company - and the fact that you didn't hit him up for advice... :)


Isn't Melbourne a small town outside Sydney??

Isn't London the capital of Afghanistan?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2014, 08:21:33 AM »
Thou must not fail the asshole test.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2014, 10:45:33 AM »
Don't mention the other clubs you are playing in the area during your access request. People and clubs like to think they are the number one reason for your trip. We even had the unforgivable example of a group having to rush at Cypress Point so they could make their next tee time at another course the same day. Really?!, hit and running Cypress Point. It happened.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2014, 11:33:04 AM »
  A little off theme, but my favorite story of dismissal of access happened at Sand Hills, Nebraska.   After his first round in a group tourney it seems a golfer got upset with an employee and, well, acted like a douche.  Mr. Youngscap got word of it, found the butthead, asked him if he liked his round of golf.  Got the "Yes" answer, then calmly said, "Good, 'cuz that's the last round you'll ever play here."   

   Don't mess with the Mullenites.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2014, 11:34:11 AM »
As a foreigner, watching Americans debate access is like watching them debate the Constitution - I think I understand but I obviously really don't.

One of the great things about GCA is that if someone is travelling to a new place, they can put up a post asking for suggestions on where to play. And they will get lots of good advice from discerning members who know golf. I did not read these posts as disguised request for access to private clubs, but it seems many others do.

Hence when now positing one of those, I feel the need to say that I am only looking for resort or public courses, no access whoring intended.

Pity that is even necessary.

Brent Hutto

Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2014, 11:43:35 AM »
I do occasionally worry about being mis-perceived as access-seeking (when if I were in fact doing I would be quite explicit about it!).

But honestly, as much as I've enjoyed some of the amazing courses I've been invited to play I'm at least as eager to locate other GCA minded folks to play with as I am in wheedling my way onto a specific highly desirable course. I'm not quite saying I'd rather play Podunk Muni with some fellow GCA'ers than play Augusta National by myself...but it would be a closer call for me than for most, I suspect.

A year or so ago I was fishing around for suggestions/hookups in the Phoenix area prior to a short business trip there. One of GCA's own got in touch and we were able to play together the one afternoon I was free for golf. He warned me upon first making contact that he did not have any "in" or access to private clubs. But we played at Papago and I thought both the course and the company were absolutely first rate and totally enjoyable.

It is a pity the occasional bit of unsavory wheedling that has taken place on this forum tends to make it expected much more often than it probably actually occurs.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2014, 11:56:25 AM »
There have been a handful of guys here over the years who have been blatant access whores.  For the most part they no longer remain.  Almost everyone I've met here has been extremely gracious as both a guest and a host.  If only we showed each other the same courtesy online.  I can't really imagine asking anyone directly for access out of the blue, particularly at a very exclusive club.  Most clubs can arrange reciprocal games at all but the most exclusive courses, particularly if you're willing to play off season and/or mid-week.  In fact I think the only time I've ever approached anyone for access was when an architect buddy of mine was in town and had a legitimate business/historical interest.  Also these were guys I was at a minimum well acquainted with personally beforehand, or close personal friends.  I also made it clear that he'd be just as happy to walk the course as play.  Shel's point about inviting yourself over to someone's house for dinner is pretty spot on.  The older I get, I think the aggressive bedpost notchers among us deserve our sympathy more than our admiration.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Connolly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2014, 12:02:29 PM »
If someone is asking for access/invite, do you think they expect to pay? Or, if you offer to host when someone asks to play, does that imply you will be paying? Perhaps it's a case by case. I've been burned before by being asked by a neighborhood friend for access and he then added 2 more guys. I felt awkward asking for money - I felt that if I said yes, I should pay for the rounds. It was a $500 fiasco. Lesson learned?
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2014, 12:30:48 PM »
There are several sides to this etiquette question.

From the sides of the person looking for the access, the comparison to being invited for dinner is a good one. You don't ask for a dinner invitation - they need to be offered. You thank the host for the offer. You don't bring extra guests to a dinner. You don't walk into the host's house and start taking a bunch of pictures. You don't show up dressed inappropriately. You offer to recoup the host in an appropriate way (at dinner you might bring a dish of your own or beverages, and at a club you should bring money to pay). You show up on time. You don't put out a Facebook invitation asking other people to join. You ask questions about things you aren't sure about to show that you're respectful and keep from looking like an idiot. All the same rules apply to being hosted at a private club.

Likewise on the dinner invitation, though, there are friends of mine who live out of town and I would hope they let me know when they're coming near my city, as I'd be happy to invite them over. I always hope co-workers will tell me if they plan to head to my neighborhood one Saturday, as I'm happy to meet them and show them around. Similarly, it's perfectly appropriate to put up a travel thread on GCA. Announce that you're going to be somewhere, and ask for course recommendations. This site is full of people who love recommending courses and other attractions in their city. It's full of people who have fond memories from their own travels that they'd like you to consider. It's full of people who will use the search feature to find travel recommendations in the future and will appreciate that there are previous threads to reference. And yes, it's also full of people who really enjoy hosting guests at their clubs. I'd be pretty bummed if I found out someone from GCA who I consider to be an interesting poster visited my town without me knowing, even if I only would've had time to meet for a drink or something. Just don't post such a thread with a goal of getting access - post instead with a goal of getting information about where to play and what to see and do and with a sociable attitude.

There's also etiquette for hosts. Be clear about rules of the club so your guest doesn't have to ask and doesn't risk looking like an idiot when he shows up. Let him know where he should go when he arrives in case you're not there to meet him. Make his enjoyment of the day a priority. You wouldn't invite someone over for dinner so you could half-ass it and rush them out of the house. It's easier if you just don't invite them in that case. Likewise, as a private club member, you're never obligated to host anyone you don't care for or host someone if it's a big inconvenience, so don't act like it's a hassle to have a guest that you invited.

One last thing: The easiest way to get the benefit of the doubt about access whoring on this site is to contribute meaningfully to the discussion of architecture. Share the knowledge you have. Ask questions about things that show a real inquisitiveness if you don't have much knowledge of your own. If your posting pattern suggests that you're just someone who gets excited about playing good courses but has no ability or desire to analyze and competently discuss the architecture of those courses, you will get exposed when you express your desire to play private clubs. You'll also get raked over the coals when you violate the advice in this thread. This site is a bit like a club in its own right, in the sense that it has a group of self-policing members who are passionate about why they're here and quick to expose someone who's just in it for the social perks.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2014, 12:41:45 PM »
Perhaps I've failed the Clayman test, or maybe it has something to do with Andrew Buck's strategy, but I can't remember the last unwelcomed request for access coming my way.  I could be wrong, but I suspect that the number who take offense from these types of requests are outnumbered by a factor of 20 to 1.  Really, SL, you would put an Email or IM asking to play your course analogous to someone inviting himself to your house for dinner?  We do live in different worlds!

Re: the thread "requiring" this one, a fellow GCAer has the opportunity to bring a foursome to a word-class golf course known to most here as a club of the highest standards which welcomes its guests to enjoy the whole experience sans formality and pretense.  The gentlemen extends this opportunity to members of this DG with no express or implied quid pro quo/hidden agenda.  But no good deed should go unpunished, he gets blasted by two highly-privileged, self-appointed "keepers of the gates", and the thread is pulled.

Perhaps the originator erred in his open approach.  Or maybe he had permission from the sponsoring member.  Did the critics know the circumstances, the specifics?  Would it have been more couth for the guy to have gone to the site's power brokers/facilitators to fill the foursome?  And what about the inherent quid pro quos/conflicts of interest with this method?  Me, I found his very "democratic" approach well-intentioned and refreshing.

Dick Youngscap is a great friend of golf.  He has sponsored a number of GCAers over the years as unaccompanied guests.  As noted earlier, the club has a great reputation for being welcoming to its guests, member-accompanied or not.  With a short season and a difficult labor market, guest play is likely an important part of its financial well-being.  It is a policy which seems to work for the club, offering the chance to play a great course to some who aren't well-connected without detracting from the membership experience (unless one values exclusivity very highly- I don't).

To those who are offended by requests for access, is having to say "No" that inconvenient?  For the most part, we know who you are and I suspect that you are not bothered often.  Does a public chastisement of an "offender" really elevate you or the site?  Aren't there other bigger problems in your life demanding attention?

By the way John Kavanaugh, not that you were referring to me, but we never left Cypress Point in a hurry.  As you know, when you play unaccompanied, the caddies set the pace and ensure that you're gone by noon.  On our day, we had a leisurely lunch elsewhere after our round with the Great Man, then made a mad dash to play Olympic when a member found out we were heading to the airport and insisted we change our flights.  It remains the greatest day of golf in my life, and all due to the great generosity and courtesy of members of this fantastic website.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT (?): The Etiquette of Access
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2014, 12:47:33 PM »
I have rarely paid when I have either asked or been asked to join someone at their club.  I always require people who join me at my club to pay.  I call it whoring forward.

The key, and I know that I have spent my capital, is to create a value of you equal to the time and cost of a round.  Do that and you will find your biggest problem is turning invitations away.