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Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Poppy Hills
« on: April 28, 2014, 01:17:00 PM »
Just played the redone Poppy Hills.  I haven't seen any thread on this, but I apologize if others have already commented on it.
In summary, the course is cetainly improved from where it was.  The only major rerouting is of #10-11-12 and that is a good reroute.  #10 green is now to the right of the big pond, #11 is a fairly short par 3 down the hill with a difficult green complex, and #12 is the back half of the old hole, making it a straight par 4.  Course is now par 36-35=71.
The best improvements are in the green complexes--simplier and more playable.  The course took out 17 acres of irrigation and added a lot of dunes.  Longer and shorter tee choices are now available.
I liked the redo.  The course still suffers by comparison with the other great courses in the area, but for what it is meant to be as a course for the Northern California Golf Association, it's significantly better.

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2014, 04:53:59 PM »

I wonder if this will be Best Renovation of 2014.

What other courses are re-opening this year after renovations?

Is this better than the new greens and changes at Quail Hollow?

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2014, 05:35:29 PM »

I wonder if this will be Best Renovation of 2014.

What other courses are re-opening this year after renovations?

Is this better than the new greens and changes at Quail Hollow?

They didn't do much to Quail Hollow.... Are the tiny changes there even considered a renovation?

I would vote for Poppy as Best Renovation of 2014
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Gary Sato

Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2014, 06:37:58 PM »
Just played the redone Poppy Hills.  I haven't seen any thread on this, but I apologize if others have already commented on it.
In summary, the course is cetainly improved from where it was.  The only major rerouting is of #10-11-12 and that is a good reroute.  #10 green is now to the right of the big pond, #11 is a fairly short par 3 down the hill with a difficult green complex, and #12 is the back half of the old hole, making it a straight par 4.  Course is now par 36-35=71.
The best improvements are in the green complexes--simplier and more playable.  The course took out 17 acres of irrigation and added a lot of dunes.  Longer and shorter tee choices are now available.
I liked the redo.  The course still suffers by comparison with the other great courses in the area, but for what it is meant to be as a course for the Northern California Golf Association, it's significantly better.

I have seen very little about this renovation as well except that it's better which isn't a ringing endorsement.  Ron Whitten said it was a good mulligan.

Of the 7 courses on the 17 mile drive is it still the 7th best?

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2014, 08:40:10 PM »
Of the 7 courses on the 17 mile drive is it still the 7th best?

You could sure get an argument of it vs. Spanish Bay.  But that would make it 6 or 7.

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2014, 08:45:21 PM »

What other courses are re-opening this year after renovations?


Medinah #1 opens this month

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2014, 10:09:09 PM »
The best improvements are in the green complexes--simplier and more playable.  The course took out 17 acres of irrigation and added a lot of dunes. 

Dunes?  Up on the side of the hill in the trees?  Can you describe those in more detail?

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2014, 11:38:45 PM »
The best improvements are in the green complexes--simplier and more playable.  The course took out 17 acres of irrigation and added a lot of dunes. 

Dunes?  Up on the side of the hill in the trees?  Can you describe those in more detail?

I think Jim was probably referring to the sandy waste areas around the course, as seen in the picture below. 

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2014, 01:21:38 PM »
Philadelphia Cricket Club Wissahickon will blow them all away!!

Walked it the day after Thanksgiving with Powell Armsc -=  Wow.   Can't wait to play it.

   

  Wm Flynnfan
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2014, 02:42:37 PM »
Who did the work at Poppy Hills?
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Gary Sato

Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2014, 03:17:19 PM »
Who did the work at Poppy Hills?

Robert Trent Jones Jr., the original architect. 

From the photo I see two different types of sand?   Considering this faux Pine Valley style was the selling point by Mr. Jones to the NCGA, I am at a loss why they would use two different sands?  One may be local and the other imported. I may be out of my league here but is Cypress Point using an imported bright white sand for the bunkers while the natural dunes are different in color and texture?

The other aspect I see in this photo which I'm told is quite evident in other holes are the cart paths.  Perhaps it's the revenue equation but you would think the NCGA would promote walking and eliminate cart paths?

I am playing here in a few weeks and will discuss.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2014, 05:49:09 PM »
"From the photo I see two different types of sand?"

Gary S. -

I could be mistaken, but I believe the white sand is for the bunkers (raked & played as a hazard) and the brown sand is for waste areas (where you can ground your club).

DT
 

Gary Sato

Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2014, 06:27:22 PM »
"From the photo I see two different types of sand?"

I could be mistaken, but I believe the white sand is for the bunkers (raked & played as a hazard) and the brown sand is for waste areas (where you can ground your club).

DT

I understand your point but other courses have the same sand.

Pinehurst as an example.


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2014, 07:47:54 PM »
Kevin, Is that picture of the 1st @ Poppy?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2014, 08:33:50 PM »
Kevin, Is that picture of the 1st @ Poppy?



I believe it is the 4th hole, at the second dogleg ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2014, 09:28:24 PM »
For what it's worth, everything I have heard about the new renovation is that it's incredible. I'm hoping to play it in a week or two, in which case I will report back.

The difference between the waste areas at Poppy (the brown "bunkers") and the dunes at Cypress is that the dunes are much closer in appearance to the white bunkers they have there. I'm guessing it's the native sand at Cypress, but I have no clue. Poppy doesn't have a native sandy soil that's adequate for bunkers, which is why I believe they are white. The jury's out for me on how it looks, I want to see it in person. A picture with increased saturation from Joann Dost is always going to polarize opinions.

What's amazing to me is that we've championed all sorts of ideas on here about what golf architecture should be, Poppy (and RTJII) have seemed to listen and now, with it's sand-capped fairways, Poppy is very firm and fast (from all reports I've heard), has no rough, and acres of short grass around the greens!

We're crushing it for being 6th or 7th on the peninsula, but the huge majority of us can't access three of those courses. I'm far more excited by the prospect of having a course that will rank 3rd out of 4th of those courses, especially when the two public tracks ahead of it are Pebble and Spyglass. Not to mention that I'll be playing it for hundreds less than the other 3 courses which it is competing with.

That being said, Powell was kind enough to show me around Wissahickon last summer. Seeing it in person during construction, and seeing the finished product the last few days on here, that's got to be the obvious candidate for best renovation this year. I don't know what it was before, but it's a world class course now.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2014, 01:27:46 AM »
Tom, Kevin is right.  I was sloppy in calling them dunes; it's really just sandy waste areas that are all over the course--much like I expect to see this week at Pinehurst #2.  It's a nice, improved look at Poppy.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 06:46:40 PM by Jim Hoak »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2014, 12:23:47 PM »
Is the sand in the "waste areas" the native soil?

If it's good enough to be in play off the fairways, why isn't it good enough to be around the greens? 

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2014, 09:35:18 AM »
Tom, I highly doubt that the waste area sand is native soil. It is possible, but from what I know about the make up of the soil there, it's highly unlikely.

It was described to me that the site PH resides was the "dump" leading up to PH's arrival. My impression was that it wasn't so much a garbage dump, as it was a debris dump, for materials leftover from all the construction that occurred over the decades on the peninsula.

"Clayey" was also included in the description of the site's soil. Spyglass Hill was also described that way.

Considering the color and nature of the native sands, pulled out of the mine where Spanish By now resides, is the lynch pin, for me opining, on the material in question origins.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2014, 11:21:47 AM »
I did not play Poppy before the reno, but did play 2 weeks ago. Some general thoughts, which have been discussed with fellow GCAers I played with...


-The 11 holes on the clubhouse side (1-9, 17&18) of the street are very good. Really strategic, playable, fantastic golf.

-The different color sand is odd... though it does make clear where one can ground their club! We agreed that mixing the white sand brought in from just up the coast and the darker sand, presumably a mix of natural and foreign, would be more visually appealing if applied throughout the course.

-Conditions were firm but not fast yet. Still made for a great experience and you need not wait to go play!

-The wood chips used off the fairway to presumably replicate the pinestraw experience one might find around the pinehurst area does not entirely work IMO. The wood chips are big and chance for recovery is not great... If posed with a drive where the fairway is flanked by bunkers on one side and runoff/woodchips on the other, favor the bunker!

-The other 7 holes on the back 9 are not as good. Some of that is from missed opportunity (hole 10 is a headscratcher), some is from weird routing (the new 11th is great, but the walk is odd), and the rest probably from less to work with in general.

-The tee markers of the back tees are just... well, too unique for words...

Matt Schiffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2014, 03:25:15 PM »
I also just played Poppy Hills and would agree that it's a very good renovation (though probably not as good as Philly Cricket, which I saw earlier this year). 

I love the way it plays despite the fact that I never quite figured out how to stop my ball on the greens with long approach shots.  Next time I'll aim short, left or right and let it roll on, much like you have to do at Chambers Bay.  The no-rough style (similar to Pinehurst No. 2 and Cal Club's back nine) is terrific and very freeing.  As in: you're free to tie your own noose.

I didn't think the sand color was a big deal aesthetically but do agree that the ubiquitous cart path and long walks (9 to 10 and 16 to 17) are routing weaknesses.  There were a few interesting central fairway bunkers that made me think.  The native areas played like hard pan and presented an element of luck due to the vegetation.  The new bentgrass greens were a lot of fun to putt around.

I can't say where it ranks against its neighbors but I'll certainly be going back to play again.  $70 for NCGA members and interesting enough strategically to warrant repeated play. 

I've posted photos and additional commentary here: http://www.greengrassgolfdesign.com/current/2014/6/25/poppy-hills-more-fairway-more-options-more-fun
Providing freelance design, production and engineering for GCAs around the world! http://greengrassengineering.com/landing/

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2014, 03:38:33 PM »
I only played it the one time a long time ago, but is it fair to say the property is not an overly friendly one to the architect? I guess compared to its neighbors though anything inland might appear that way.

Matt Schiffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2014, 03:48:51 PM »
No, I wouldn't agree with that.  The topography isn't outrageous so, once the drainage issues were resolved with the sand cap, I think the site has a lot going for it.  It's got beautiful tree-lined fairway corridors and a very isolated-feeling natural setting, no houses in sight.  Only thing it's missing are long views to the Pacific (though you can sort of see the ocean from 12 and 15 tees now).
Providing freelance design, production and engineering for GCAs around the world! http://greengrassengineering.com/landing/

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2014, 10:54:17 PM »
Thanks Matt. I do remember barely being able to see the ocean.

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Poppy Hills
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2014, 10:43:57 AM »
Over time the sand colors will likely become similar.  Typically the white sand in the bunkers gets dirty and the sun bleaches the local sand which likely was under turf prior to the renovation.