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David Ober

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Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« on: April 26, 2014, 12:53:15 PM »
Every time I play here I feel the need to comment on the amazing job they are doing at Lakeside. I'm playing in The Kelly Cup, and the condition of the golf course is simply perfect. Some highlights:

1) The tree removal of a few years ago has now fully taken effect. The course has a bit more of an open feel than it did before and the fairways are all healthy and equally covered with perfectly manicured bermuda. Gone are any soggy, grassless patches that crop up when there are trees lining every fairway. In fact, gone is any sogginess anywhere on the golf course. Also absent is the need to hit tee shots into tiny openings. Are there still trees at Lakeside? Of course. But now they are just a part of the experience, whereas the course used to be too much about negotiating trees, if you ask me.

Just an amazing job with the tree removal.

2) The course truly plays "firm and fast," though it is as green as green can be. Well, let me put it a different way: If you golf you ball, it plays firm and fast. If you are errant with your tee shots, it plays like hell itself! The rough during The Kelly Cup is 3 inches and as thick as I've ever played. But, if you keep in in the short grass, you are rewarded with firm and fast conditions the like of which I have rarely played -- especially on shots that are played into the almost always present "openings" to the greens at Lakeside. One of the things the new superintendent did (along with the greens committee, I'm sure) is to re-seed (sod?) every single "run-up area" on the whole golf course with a different grass than the Bermuda that is found in the fairways. (BTW, if anyone knows what kind of grass was used, I would love to know). The resultant surface is a perfect medium to play low, releasing shots into. The ball reacts truly, and you can actually plan to hit the ball 5 or even 10 yards short of the green and pitch it forward and on.

This decision was truly a brilliant one, as Lakeside is an extremely difficult test, and with the greens (nearly?) as firm and fast as at a PGA major championship, the average player needs an "escape route" in lieu of simply firing at the pin. In fact, one of the reasons Lakeside is such a great course today is that very reason: variety of shot-making options. Well done, Lakeside.

3) The greens. Oh my, the greens. First of all, they are tiny. They may be, on average, the smallest set of greens in the country (or at least close). They are probably 100% poa annua, but they are the best poa greens I have ever putt on. True, fast, and firm. They will (barely) accept a well struck 8 or 9-iron, but if you catch one just a fraction thin or fat: Good-bye golf ball.

A few hole highlights:

1)  I love stepping on number one at Lakeside. It's a relatively simple slight dogleg left of 390ish yards. It's not the best hole on the course, but to me, it's one of the best because when I'm teeing it up there, it means I'm at Lakeside, which always gives me butterflies. If the hole is rather ho-hum, the green is great -- one of the best (of many) on the course. It's small, like nearly all the greens at Lakeside, with an opening in the front left, and deep bunker guarding the right and middle of the green. There's a mound in the middle left that is just large enough upon which to place a pin position that is "fair" (I know many of you hate that concept) under tournament conditions, and that mound influences all putts on the green.

So a word on that (the smallness of the greens combined with speed and mounding): Because the greens are small and fast, any internal mounding must be negotiated with the utmost skill, since there is rarely much green to work with at the end of each mound. That means that one must control speed coming off of mounds and slopes to a very exacting degree, unlike on larger greens where there is often much more "real estate" at the end of a mound or slope. In my opinion, the greens at Lakeside strike this very delicate balance perfectly.

3) Number four is a 570 yard true 3-shot par 5. The drive is relatively straight forward, but a drive to the left side of the fairway yields a better view of the demanding lay-up shot. If you are right of the tee, there is a small group of trees that require you to either go over them or bend one left to right. The second shot, though, is deceptively difficult. Because of the way the first and second "sections" of fairway are laid out, they first portion aims you left, but the second portion is off and too the right a bit, requiring careful aim to find the fairway and not leave yourself in the rough trying to hit to one of, if not the, most difficult greens on the course to hit.

The green is simply diabolical. It's tiny, with an opening front right and a kidney-shaped green that goes from front right to back left. There is a bunker that guards the front left and two(?) to the right as well, in addition to one long, center. If the pin is in the left portion, just about the only way to get it close is to bring the ball in from the right. Firing straight at the pin is a recipe for disaster, as most shots will bounds over the green (even with a wedge!) and you will be left with an extremely difficult up and down from even two or three yards over the green, as that portion slopes from back to front fairly significantly.

Another cool feature of the fourth is the transition from the green area directly into the fifth tee. It's just brilliantly done, natural, and creates a perfect flow into the next hole. I will try to get some pictures today.

That's it for now. Will come back tonight and post more. Have to go stretch my back and warm up for the second round!!




archie_struthers

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2014, 01:25:50 PM »
 ;) ;D


Lakeside is an awesome tract.  Very cool!


I really enjoyed playing in the Kelly Cup a few years ago there.  A great mix of short and  long holes , and just enough quirk to make it interesting. Can certainly understand why it's a hidden gem of the West Coast.

Particularly like the beginning of the back nine , where you really need to place your ball in the right spot !

mike_beene

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2014, 09:53:18 PM »
I think they have the smallest greens I have ever played. Are there smaller greens anywhere?

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2014, 12:52:11 PM »
Good to hear positive stories about a course where I caddied at age 14.  I have no doubt that some tree removal helped and that they also need to do more tree removal.  The biggest issue at Lakeside has always been the lack of architectural knowledge among the membership.

Now if they can overcome the silly notion that the 3 inch rough is necessary for the Kelly Cup, they will really be making some strides forward.

Still one of my favorite lines from a club newsletter ever came from Lakeside: "Despite the lack of color in the flower beds by the gardeners the Ladies member/guest was played last week."
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2014, 12:57:34 PM »

Still one of my favorite lines from a club newsletter ever came from Lakeside:

"Despite the lack of color in the flower beds by the gardeners the Ladies member/guest was played last week."

Lynn,

You know, you just can't make that stuff up.

Hope all is well


Norbert P

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2014, 01:48:52 PM »
 
 Some history of the course and Behr . . .

http://lakesidegolfclub.com/The%20Club/History.aspx

Curious about some of the bunkers by the greens.  Some seem rather far from greens.  Is this due to green shrinkage or original design?
 (Some pictures are at Home intro page)

I've never seen Lakeside but I've been lucky enough to walk the trail around Rancho Santa Fe.  Educational course, to say the least.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Jim Eder

Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2014, 03:06:07 PM »
I absolutely love Lakeside.

Norbert, here are pics of the course. I hope you and anyone else interested enjoy the pics.

The course plays to 6583 yds from the Championship tees with a par of 70, a course rating of 72.7 and a 128 slope (From the Tournament tees it plays to 6714 yds, a course rating of 73.4 and a 130 slope. 60yds of that total yardage difference comes from the 18th hole, the other holes are pretty much the same).

The Great Roger Kelly Statue




Hole 1 384yds Par 4 slight dogleg left

Tee Shot




Approach



Green from front



1 Green from behind




Hole 2 464yds Par 5 slight dogleg right

Tee Shot




Long Approach




Short Approach




Hole 3 186yds Par 3




Green view from front





Hole 4 582yds Par 5 slight dogleg right

Tee Shot




Long Approach




Short approach




Green View




Hole 5 448yds Par 4 dogleg left

Tee Shot




Approach




5 green view from in front




5 Green view from 6 tee



Hole 6 163 yds Par 3




View from behind




Hole 7  440 yds Par 4 dogleg right

Tee shot




Approach




7 Green from behind back left by 8 tee




Hole 8  443 yds Par 4

Tee shot




Approach




Greensite




Hole 9  238 yds Par 3





Hole 10  415 yds Par 4

Tee shot




Approach




Hole 11  408 yds Par 4

Tee shot




Approach




Hole 12  318 yds Par 4 dogleg left

Tee shot




Approach




Hole 13  300 yds Par 4 dogleg left

Tee shot




Approach

 


13 Green from behind




Hole 14  412 yds Par 4 slight dogleg left

Tee Shot




Approach




14 green from behind





Hole 15  86 yds Par 3




Green view from right of green




Hole 16  391 yds Par 4

Tee shot

I do not have a recent pic as it is pretty blind but do show a pic looking back from the green to the landing area two pictures down.

Here is a pic of the tee shot of 16 from about 4 years ago.




Approach




Looking back to fairway from green




Hole 17  432 yds Par 4 slight right

Tee shot




Approach



Hole 18  404 yds Par 4 (464 yds from the Tournament tee) The flag poll is just behind the green

Tee shot




Approach




Green from in front


« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 07:19:14 PM by Jim Eder »

Stephen Davis

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2014, 03:17:21 PM »
Jim, thank you for that phototour! Having grown up in LA and seeing this course once before, it looks so much better than I ever remember it. Another great restoration in the LA area. That makes me happy!

Jordan Standefer

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2014, 03:52:21 PM »
Lovely pictures.  Having worked in the area for many years I would have never guessed such undulation could be found behind those gates.

Jim Eder

Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2014, 03:54:54 PM »
Stephen,

You are welcome. Glad you enjoyed the pics. It really is an awesome place.

I love the work they did at Wilshire as well. Once I go through and label my pics of Wilshire I will post those. Another awesome place.


Jordan,

There really is a lot of movement at Lakeside. Agreed, a wonderful surprise.

Stephen Davis

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2014, 03:57:00 PM »
Stephen,

You are welcome. Glad you enjoyed the pics. It really is an awesome place.

I love the work they did at Wilshire as well. Once I go through and label my pics of Wilshire I will post those. Another awesome place.


Jordan,

There really is a lot of movement at Lakeside. Agreed, a wonderful surprise.


Totally agree! The work at Wilshire is truly spectacular! The work at LACC isn't too shabby either  ;)

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2014, 04:00:53 PM »
Jim,

Great photo tour! Were these picturse taken before Todd Eckenrode's work there? The bunker look just a little too clean and tidy. Probably doesn't take too long to mow that set of greens!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2014, 04:39:13 PM »
The par 3 6th looks all world.

Is that correct that the 15th is only 86 yards?

I thought I had played this course back in the 70's but I must be mistaken.  Now I need to figure out what course I really did play.

Jim Eder

Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2014, 06:44:59 PM »
Stephen,

Totally agree, LACC is truly spectacular.

Pete,

Thank you. The pics were taken in Nov 2013 so they are fairly recent. I know Todd did some work but can't exactly remember the details sadly.

The greens are small.

Joel,

The 6th is a great par 3. The green is pretty interesting.

The 15th really is 86 yards. It can be seen on some of the old Celebrity Golf matches with Sam Snead from the early 60s. The green is not very deep (hopefully it can be kind of seen in the photo I posted from the right side) and it is a bit of an awkward distance. Really fun.

The 15th also has a alternate green to the right that plays longer. I'll have to look at the card to get the exact distance but personally I love the short hole.

James Bennett

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2014, 06:49:32 PM »
Joel

There is a 15 and a 15 a that plays at 90 degrees. 15 a is about 160 yards down a valley. The original 15 tg is very short playing across a valley.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2014, 07:12:23 PM »
Fabulous pictures.  It is a great routing with a convenient snack bar right in the middle of the property.  Two things I noticed.

The greens look even smaller than when I last played there, probably about 2000.

Forgot how many holes allow a run up shot.

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Jim Eder

Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2014, 07:13:50 PM »
Joel,

Here is a pic of the alternate 15 hole that James mentions. This is from about 4 years ago.




Jim Eder

Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2014, 07:15:46 PM »
Here is a picture from probably 4 years ago of the tee shot on 16.




Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2014, 07:17:52 PM »
I have an old high school basketball teammate swear that this is a true story circa 1965-70.

He regularly sneaked onto the course in the late afternoons, through the chain leak fence near the 11th green.  One day when he did this, a single in a cart drives up and asks if he could join him and to my old friend's astonishment it is Bob Hope.  My friend says fine but is wondering what to do as the round nears the last two holes heading back toward the clubhouse.  Finally he gets up his nerve and says, "Thanks Mr. Hope, but I got to go back to 11 as that is near where I live."
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2014, 10:42:09 PM »
The greens seem to shrink a few inches every year.   I played there pretty regularly in high school and then a few times in the early 90's and then last fall.  Quite a few greens have really gotten smaller over the years--especially 9, 17, and 18.  I would venture to say the 9th was literally twice it's current size in 1980.

Greg Chambers

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2014, 10:57:37 PM »

Forgot how many holes allow a run up shot.



Pretty much every green allows you to use the ground to gain access.  And the course is kept so firm that this is always an option.  I'm pretty sure that part of Todd's plan would be to reclaim some green surfaces....can't wait to see what they do with it.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Bill_McBride

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2014, 11:20:19 PM »
Love that first hole, with the draw tee shot and fade approach.  Very much in the Ross spirit.  That Behr guy must have been good. 

Greg Chambers

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2014, 11:34:27 PM »
Bill, I don't think that green site is original to the design....but it is a really cool start nonetheless. 
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Gib_Papazian

Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2014, 12:43:46 PM »
While everybody is hyperventilating this love fest, let me offer a little different take.

The setup looks like an obnoxious obstacle course with USGA rough lines and shrunken greens. It has been a long time since I was there, but what I found was a cramped, over-treed hodge-podge of design philosophies, all framed with deep rough and ridiculously small putting surfaces that cannot possibly be close to the original intention of Max Behr.

A club official bragged something about the Kelly Cup course record being 68 (par-70) as if that was a badge of honor - or incontrovertible evidence of Lakeside's quality. I've got a tremendous respect for the work Todd does - so much so that I insisted a group come to San Diego a day early last week to show them Barona.

So it is nice to see they've consented to Todd performing some tree removal - especially since so many tee and approach shots were harassed by overhanging limbs that lurked like vultures over the playing area. But that ought to just be the start.

Unlike The Emperor, I am hardly an expert on Max Behr beyond an admiration for his peerless writing. However, it is impossible for me to believe he would not be horrified at the rough lines and state of those tiny greens, screaming to be re-expanded into something resembling a golf course.

I'm sure the L.A. contingent will pull out their chainsaws for this heresy and demand a contrite apology to the aggrieved on the "Mistakes" thread, but I'd much rather play golf at Arroyo Seco with my fraternity brothers than be forced to endure 18 lashes of a horsewhip on that U.S. Open wannabe.    
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 12:55:39 PM by Gib Papazian »

Bill Seitz

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Re: Lakeside Golf Club in Los Angeles (Max Behr)
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2014, 12:59:36 PM »
The greens seem to shrink a few inches every year.   I played there pretty regularly in high school and then a few times in the early 90's and then last fall.  Quite a few greens have really gotten smaller over the years--especially 9, 17, and 18.  I would venture to say the 9th was literally twice it's current size in 1980.

The last time I played there was probably ten years ago (I've played it twice), and I remember walking off the course thinking that my short game was really in excellent shape.  I was getting up and down from everywhere.  Then it dawned on me that it wasn't the quality of my short game.  It was because the greens are so tiny, just getting the ball on the green gives you a pretty good chance at a makeable putt. 

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