In Praise of Slow Green Speeds

[Mike Hendren]

Elsewhere, Gib asks:  "Would anybody like to go back to the old days - watching Palmer have to give the ball a nasty whack to reach the hole? I think not laddie. I think not."

Perhaps I'm the lone anybody.   

Is putting on fast greens the least athletic endeavor in the world of sports? 

Frankly, it's silly.

7 on the stimp is ideal.

Bogey             

[BCowan]

Mr Bogey,

   Great post and I couldn't agree more!  More slope please, but no need for ''Green Speed Arms Race''.  Granite top hard greens please 

[Rob Curtiss]

I am no expert on this topic, but I like a nice medium speed to greens where you can still have enough movement to make the greens creative and fun , but not so much that they cant be played at certain pin locations

I have played a couple of holes at Salem CC and for fun we tried to keep balls on the green from certain other points and we could not because the greens were so fast. that just seems unfair.

[Brent Hutto]

I think greens Stimping 7 suck to putt on.

Can't imagine they'd be any more interesting to see someone else putt on than they are to play myself.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think greens Stimping 7 suck to putt on.

Can't imagine they'd be any more interesting to see someone else putt on than they are to play myself.

I am so glad I met you otherwise I would never understand why we are so much alike.

[Peter Pallotta]

I like having to use only a short, light stroke on putts, since the law of physics (or something) means there's less time for my hands to get twitchy and less space for the putter-head to get off-line. (Isn't that the real reason we make more 3 footers than we do 15 footers -- i.e. because it's harder for a putter head to get an inch off line when it's only travelling 3-4 inches than when it's travelling to 8-10?). Plus, and Brent and I have discussed this before: maybe there are courses out there where greens that stimp at 7 aren't also bumpy and crappy...but if so the likes of me hasn't played them yet.

Peter

[Sean_A]

Bogey

I agree in principle, but would stump for 9ish as the ideal.  7 is just too slow for a lot of greens I play to really come close to shining.

Ciao

[SL_Solow]

I have survived long enough to remember playing when fast greens were in the 8 range and everybody thought they were lightening quick.  People actually putted off greens.  But I have worked with enough greens' committees to know that we won't be able to turn the clock back, even if we want to because players have seen how fast and smooth modern grasses and techniques allow supers to get their greens and the members demand it.  The tougher issue is keeping that demand from compelling clubs to increase speeds to ridiculous extremes.  At some point, turf health is jeopardized.  Additionally, for non-professional play putting becomes uncontrolable and the pace of play is harmed.  Of course, this also eliminates some interesting hole locations.  The pros putt on greens in excess of 12 or 13 some weeks.  Truly absurd for the regular game.  10.5 really pushes it in my experience.  Incidentally, posting stimp readings only feeds the frenzy.

[Carl Nichols]

I like having to use only a short, light stroke on putts, since the law of physics (or something) means there's less time for my hands to get twitchy and less space for the putter-head to get off-line. (Isn't that the real reason we make more 3 footers than we do 15 footers -- i.e. because it's harder for a putter head to get an inch off line when it's only travelling 3-4 inches than when it's travelling to 8-10?). Plus, and Brent and I have discussed this before: maybe there are courses out there where greens that stimp at 7 aren't also bumpy and crappy...but if so the likes of me hasn't played them yet.

Peter

That's part of it, but isn't it really that the longer the putt, the more dispersion between a perfectly online putt and one that's a little offline?  I'm not going to do the math, but a putt that's just one degree offline will still go in the hole from 3 feet, but will obviously miss the hole from a longer distance.  

[Mac Plumart]

9 or 10 for me.

[Peter Pallotta]

You're right, Carl - I was exaggerating a little bit to make a point, which is that, amongst the range of speeds/greens I play, I find that it seems easier to me to putt the faster (I won't say 'fast') greens than the slower ones, partly because the faster ones  are usually smoother (I won't say 'smooth') than the slower ones.

Peter

[BHoover]

I despise slow greens.  Give me something in the 10 range and I'm happy.  If I wanted to putt slow surfaces, I would stay home and hit putts on my living room carpet. 

[BCowan]

If your playing a Dr Mack or Willie Park Jr course 9 will give you plenty of challenge.  Plus to make greens faster greens are typically made softer.  I don't want to see greens have their slope removed.  Firmer is better.  The 20 handi wants his shot out of the rough to hold on the green and for them to run 11 on the stemp.  He has it all backwards IMHO. 

[Thomas Dai]

But if you're gonna have slow greens, then you'd better have a couple more degrees of loft on your putter, more like 5-6* rather than the 2-3* most new putters are sold with these days. Also, if you're going to go with slow greens then there's not much point in using a soft insert putter either, nor for that matter a soft ball.

Both fast or slow can be okay as long as the greens are firm. I can't abide soft greens though. Ugh!

atb

[Brent Hutto]

B,

Living as I do in the land of Bermuda hybrid putting surfaces, there is no observable tendency for faster greens to be softer. If anyone, perhaps a bit of the opposite tendency obtains.

[BCowan]

Brent,

    I am anxious to see if Mid Pines greens still remain firm.  I love it.  We just got 2 inches of snow last night, I am ready to move down south!  So jealous of your greens... 

[BCowan]

But if you're gonna have slow greens, then you'd better have a couple more degrees of loft on your putter, more like 5-6* rather than the 2-3* most new putters are sold with these days. Also, if you're going to go with slow greens then there's not much point in using a soft insert putter either, nor for that matter a soft ball.

Both fast or slow can be okay as long as the greens are firm. I can't abide soft greens though. Ugh!

atb

Thomas,

  All Cameron putters have 4 degs of loft i've been told (not positive).  One putting teacher advocates 5 or 6 deg, another advocates 2-3.  Position of hands (press) is a big factor.  I do agree slower greens and more loft is better.  Slower greens make mallets more of an option too.

[Thomas Dai]

But if you're gonna have slow greens, then you'd better have a couple more degrees of loft on your putter, more like 5-6* rather than the 2-3* most new putters are sold with these days. Also, if you're going to go with slow greens then there's not much point in using a soft insert putter either, nor for that matter a soft ball.
Both fast or slow can be okay as long as the greens are firm. I can't abide soft greens though. Ugh!
atb

Thomas,
  All Cameron putters have 4 degs of loft i've been told (not positive).  One putting teacher advocates 5 or 6 deg, another advocates 2-3.  Position of hands (press) is a big factor.  I do agree slower greens and more loft is better.  Slower greens make mallets more of an option too.

Ben,
Yes! putters are I believe are 2.5* standard and Scotties are normally 3.5* off the shelf but we're splitting hairs at that little loft and obviously there's customisation. I don't think anyone sells a 'standard' new putter with 5-6* any more. Position of centre of gravity is a factor too, the lower the better with slow greens/longer grass. I can't imagine that long putters would be easy to wield on very slow greens.

atb

[Terry Lavin]

Greens or good looking women, can't argue with a 10. 

[BHoover]

When we played the 2013 Midwest Mashie at Kingsley, the greens were both moderately fast and firm.  It was ideal.

[Keith OHalloran]

Greens or good looking women, can't argue with a 10. 

But in the absence of a 10, are you willing to be happy with a 7? 

[Bob_Huntley]

If I wanted to play bizarre greens I think that the Ladies Putting Club of St Andrews............Himalayas, is a close competitor.

Anthony Gray started a good thread on the Club some four or five years ago.

Bob

[Steve Okula]

If your playing a Dr Mack or Willie Park Jr course 9 will give you plenty of challenge.  Plus to make greens faster greens are typically made softer.  I don't want to see greens have their slope removed.  Firmer is better.  The 20 handi wants his shot out of the rough to hold on the green and for them to run 11 on the stemp.  He has it all backwards IMHO. 

How is it that fast greens are softer? By my perception, the opposite is true. I can't remember having seen a soft, fast green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Elsewhere, Gib asks: 

"Would anybody like to go back to the old days - watching Palmer have to give the ball a nasty whack to reach the hole? I think not laddie. I think not."

Perhaps I'm the lone anybody.

What do you mean, "perhaps" ?
You are the lone wing nut advocating for very slow greens in championships.

But, remember too, how that would affect approaches and recoveries.

YIKES, did someone switch your meds ?   

Is putting on fast greens the least athletic endeavor in the world of sports? 

Quite the opposite, it takes incredible skill.
Putting on fast greens requires precise judgement in reading the putt, then precise execution in combining line with distance.
No unathletic feat there.
And, in addition, it requires nerves of steel and the will power to commit.
Golf is a game that combines power with touch.
Why do you want to eliminate touch ?

Frankly, it's silly.

7 on the stimp is ideal.

Bogey, you're six decades behind the times.

7 is gone forever.           

[Jason Thurman]

When we played the 2013 Midwest Mashie at Kingsley, the greens were both moderately fast and firm.  It was ideal.

There was nothing moderate about being above the hole on 17 on Sunday.

Still, I'm with you. I don't think I've ever thought "These greens would be more fun if they were slower." Not at Kingsley, not at Crystal Downs, not at Idle Hour, not at Erin Hills. I like slope, speed, and firmness.