"Bobby Jones wouldn't have approved....."

[BCowan]

Pat,

I haven't teed it in the US Open

did you play in the US Open at Baltusrol or WFW?  



Do you consider the US Amatuer as having greens as firm as the US Open?  I don't.  



Firm greens are only achievable if Mother Nature cooperates, and

I haven't played granite hard top greens, I long too.  

Doesn't that make you question their very existence ?
I suspect they're more a myth than reality, whereas very fast greens are almost common place at local clubs these days..... Mother Nature permitting.

With advancement in technology we seem more worried about green speed.  

You're forgetting the most important issue........

So you think greens running at 12 (Oakmont slowed down the greens at the US Open from everyday member play u stated) for everyday member play is okay, but US Open like firmness isn't okay for everyday play?  

''No, but I played both course right before and right after U.S. Opens''
   So you don't think a keeper douses the greens sunday night after a US Open?  Weather permitting you don't think the greens at a US Open get progressively firmer, so the week before they weren't at peak firmness but close.  

''How would you know, you never played in either ?''
    From knowing someone who have played in the Semi-finals of the US Amateur and has played in at least one US Open, I won't even ask a silly question like that, are you serious?

''Mother Nature rarely cooperates in Mid-June''
    I beg to differ, May is the wet month typically, Mid June is great, not as great as mid September.  

''Green speeds of 11-12 are common place, even at local tournaments and local clubs.''

    I've played in US AM qualif. and state tourneys and caddied in member guests, I disagree.  10-11


''As I stated, I think "U.S. Open like firmness" is far less common, if it exists at all, especially at the local level''

US Open like firmness is extreme.  Unfortunately US golf is more concerned with green speed (vs firmness).  I find it dumbed down.  It's okay if a guest 4 putts a green, but heaven forbid his 2nd shot to a par 4 doesn't hold the green.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I haven't teed it in the US Open

did you play in the US Open at Baltusrol or WFW?  

No, but I played those courses right before and right after the U.S. Opens



Do you consider the US Amatuer as having greens as firm as the US Open?  I don't.  

Firm greens are only achievable if Mother Nature cooperates, and

I haven't played granite hard top greens, I long too.  

Doesn't that make you question their very existence ?
I suspect they're more a myth than reality, whereas very fast greens are almost common place at local clubs these days..... Mother Nature permitting.

With advancement in technology we seem more worried about green speed.  

You're forgetting the most important issue........

So you think greens running at 12 (Oakmont slowed down the greens at the US Open from everyday member play u stated) for everyday member play is okay, but US Open like firmness isn't okay for everyday play?  

''No, but I played both course right before and right after U.S. Opens''

So you don't think a keeper douses the greens sunday night after a US Open?

Depends upon the weather.
One year Baltusrol was so lush you didn't have to water it for a week

Weather permitting you don't think the greens at a US Open get progressively firmer, so the week before they weren't at peak firmness but close.

How convenient of you to forget the day after.
Did you ever hear of the "Closed Open"  

''How would you know, you never played in either ?''

From knowing someone who have played in the Semi-finals of the US Amateur and has played in at least one US Open,

So, it's second hand hearsay based on one tournament,.
Not actual experience over a long period of time

And, of all the things he discussed with you, the progressive firmness of the greens was at the top of the list ?  ?   ?
Was this the Open at Inverness ?

I won't even ask a silly question like that, are you serious?

Deadly

''Mother Nature rarely cooperates in Mid-June''

I beg to differ, May is the wet month typically, Mid June is great, not as great as mid September.

Oh,, so it's NOT warm in Mid-June, requiring syringing of the greens, during and after each round ?
How does that affect their firmness ?

''Green speeds of 11-12 are common place, even at local tournaments and local clubs.''

I've played in US AM qualif. and state tourneys and caddied in member guests, I disagree.  10-11

I've played in invitationals at PV, NGLA, WFW, Seminole, State Amateurs, State Opens, Metropolitan NY/NJ/CT Amateurs, Metropolitan NY/NJ/CT Opens, the North South Amateur, the Mid Atlantic Amateur, the US Amateur, the US Mid-Amateur, the US Senior Amateur and qualified locally for the U.S. Open, amongst other events, so, I'll stick with my assessment based upon 50 years of competitive play and non-competitive play.

At the GCA.com get togethers I held at Mountain Ridge and Hidden Creek the green speed was 11+ in the rain.

''As I stated, I think "U.S. Open like firmness" is far less common, if it exists at all, especially at the local level''

US Open like firmness is extreme.  

There's a reason for that.
The rise of the evil notion known as "fair".
Golfers at the local level will accept fast greens, in fact, local clubs seem to compete to produce the fastest greens.
But, firm greens are viewed in a different light.

In addition, it may be easier to transition in and out of fast greens than it is to transition in and out of firm greens.

Unfortunately US golf is more concerned with green speed (vs firmness).

I agree, for the reasons stated above  

I find it dumbed down.

I call it keeping it "fair", but, it's the same thing  

It's okay if a guest 4 putts a green, but heaven forbid his 2nd shot to a par 4 doesn't hold the green.  

I had the biggest fight on this issue when the "hot" distance balls first came on the market.
Golfers were hitting them longer, but, they weren't holding the greens, especially from the rough, so there was a movement to soften the greens, which I fought till the fighting was done.

There's firm greens, which I like, and there are "granite hard" greens which serve NO purpose at the local level.

[BCowan]

Pat,

I haven't teed it in the US Open

did you play in the US Open at Baltusrol or WFW?  



Do you consider the US Amatuer as having greens as firm as the US Open?  I don't.  

Firm greens are only achievable if Mother Nature cooperates, and

I haven't played granite hard top greens, I long too.  

Doesn't that make you question their very existence ?
I suspect they're more a myth than reality, whereas very fast greens are almost common place at local clubs these days..... Mother Nature permitting.

With advancement in technology we seem more worried about green speed.  

You're forgetting the most important issue........

So you think greens running at 12 (Oakmont slowed down the greens at the US Open from everyday member play u stated) for everyday member play is okay, but US Open like firmness isn't okay for everyday play?  

''No, but I played both course right before and right after U.S. Opens''

So you don't think a keeper douses the greens sunday night after a US Open?

Depends upon the weather.
One year Baltusrol was so lush you didn't have to water it for a week 

Weather permitting you don't think the greens at a US Open get progressively firmer, so the week before they weren't at peak firmness but close.

How convenient of you to forget the day after.
Did you ever hear of the "Closed Open"  
No, but risking losing greens so you can play a closed open on Monday is dangerous
''How would you know, you never played in either ?''
Tiger has said this and I would consider it to be more of a common application.  Cream rising to the top
From knowing someone who have played in the Semi-finals of the US Amateur and has played in at least one US Open,

So, it's second hand hearsay based on one tournament,.
Not actual experience over a long period of time
You are seriously going to tell me that US AM greens are as firm as a US Open?
And, of all the things he discussed with you, the progressive firmness of the greens was at the top of the list ?  ?   ?
Was this the Open at Inverness ?
He played in the 99' Open at Pinehurst
I won't even ask a silly question like that, are you serious?

Deadly
wow
''Mother Nature rarely cooperates in Mid-June''

I beg to differ, May is the wet month typically, Mid June is great, not as great as mid September.

Oh,, so it's NOT warm in Mid-June, requiring syringing of the greens, during and after each round ?
How does that affect their firmness ? 
syringing is applied to cool the soil temp down.  The temps would have to be very warm for them to do that.  Mid June can be the same temps as you say at last weeks Masters.
''Green speeds of 11-12 are common place, even at local tournaments and local clubs.''

I've played in US AM qualif. and state tourneys and caddied in member guests, I disagree.  10-11

I've played in invitationals at PV, NGLA, WFW, Seminole, State Amateurs, State Opens, Metropolitan NY/NJ/CT Amateurs, Metropolitan NY/NJ/CT Opens, the North South Amateur, the Mid Atlantic Amateur, the US Amateur, the US Mid-Amateur, the US Senior Amateur and qualified locally for the U.S. Open, amongst other events, so, I'll stick with my assessment based upon 50 years of competitive play and non-competitive play.
Those tourney you mentioned aren't local.  The ones bellow yes, and my statement was on average.  Stemps are exaggerated IMHO
At the GCA.com get togethers I held at Mountain Ridge and Hidden Creek the green speed was 11+ in the rain.

''As I stated, I think "U.S. Open like firmness" is far less common, if it exists at all, especially at the local level''

US Open like firmness is extreme.  

There's a reason for that.
The rise of the evil notion known as "fair".
Golfers at the local level will accept fast greens, in fact, local clubs seem to compete to produce the fastest greens.
But, firm greens are viewed in a different light.

In addition, it may be easier to transition in and out of fast greens than it is to transition in and out of firm greens.

Unfortunately US golf is more concerned with green speed (vs firmness).

I agree, for the reasons stated above  

I find it dumbed down.

I call it keeping it "fair", but, it's the same thing  

It's okay if a guest 4 putts a green, but heaven forbid his 2nd shot to a par 4 doesn't hold the green.  

I had the biggest fight on this issue when the "hot" distance balls first came on the market.
Golfers were hitting them longer, but, they weren't holding the greens, especially from the rough, so there was a movement to soften the greens, which I fought till the fighting was done.

There's firm greens, which I like, and there are "granite hard" greens which serve NO purpose at the local level.
I think we agreed 3.5/4, If clubs want to get silly and have 12 stemp greens, get silly and not water your greens is what I am saying locally, what do you gotta lose besides grass 

[Jim Nugent]

Media has changed to the point since 71 that Jones would no longer embrace television as he once did.  During Jone's lifetime television was hardly the medium enjoyed by the ignorant masses.  The Masters would better be served as a subscriber service.  As evidenced by the multiple threads on this social media site most people have not earned the right to enjoy this great gathering of the best things the game has to offer.  

You will see the first step taken once Arnie passes as the Golf Channel will be shown the door.

TV was not enjoyed by the masses in the 1960s?  I just saw a statistic that in 1970, 95.2% of all American homes had at least one TV set.  http://www.tvhistory.tv/Annual_TV_Households_50-78.JPG.  Even in 1960 it was close to 90%.  The masses, ignorant or otherwise, enjoyed TV enormously during Bobby's time. 

As for Bobby's attitude towards televising the Masters, this is from an article in the NYT:

"WHEN television cables were first planted under Augusta National's azaleas in the 1950's, the CBS network planned to show only the last few holes of the back nine. But wisely, the Masters founder, Bobby Jones, suggested that the entire 18 holes be wired.

''Mr. Jones told us we might as well wire the whole course,'' Frank Chirkinian, the now retired CBS producer, once recalled, ''because someday he knew we would be televising all 18 holes."

Given this -- given that TV is a key to the Masters' success, that Bob recognized that and even helped bring it about -- my guess is that Bobby would be thrilled with the quality of modern TV.  It shows his ideal course in ways that would have been hard to envision in 1971.   

I also bet the Masters does not go to subscription only, unless that is how all TV is delivered.