[Jason Thurman]

... wouldn't we have a lot more golfers who rave about wide corridors, fast turf, and the occasional blind shot?

... wouldn't we have a lot more golfers who rave about big, deep bunkers and lots of short grass around greens?

... wouldn't we have a lot more golfers who love to watch their shots feed up and down slopes toward and away from the hole?


We spend a lot of time railing against Augusta's influence within our own clubs. Yet, when it comes to great golf architecture and presentation, it's surely the best example that the average golfer is familiar with. Shouldn't we be using its example to our advantage when it comes to evangelizing for great golf, as opposed to trying to convince people that it's overrated?

[Matthew Rose]

I agree. Even after many of the changes, most of which I disagree with, I still think that Augusta still provides more of our preferred shot values on a yearly basis than pretty much any other venue we see, save for the UK Open venues and the occasional Pinehurst or Shinnecock.

- Most corridors are still pretty wide, and playing angles are still hugely important
- The rough is mostly ornamental
- The ball does wonderful things after it hits the ground on many holes
- The course tends to reward local knowledge as much as any there is

I think the problem is that these things are not readily apparent to the average viewer. Rather they focus on the superficial things. The beauty, the velvety-smooth green appearance, the gazillion flowers that surround the property, and the overally polished look that only an unlimited budget can achieve.

Augusta's influence is and always will be far and wide, but it is a shame that the best design attributes the course has don't seem to be really noticed.

[Garland Bayley]

It seems to me that before HD TV, no one really recognized that the site was hilly, and the bunkers deep.

[Ari Techner]

Maybe it's just me but I've never considered the corridors at Augusta National to be "wide" at all.  20 years ago maybe but not now.  I will say that you do get a very different perspective on the course walking down the middle of the fairways and standing on the tee boxes than you do as a spectator for the tournament or obviously just watching on TV.  

[Ronald Montesano]

#disagree

The turf may be fast, but all of the greens are protected and the run-up shot is never in play. I watched on #11 as ball after ball caromed toward but never on to the green...so who cares if the turf is fast?

The corridors may be wide, but you can't see the fairways through the trees. Funny that the Ike Tree's demise was big news, yet I saw more and more golfers playing from the arbor than I remember in previous years.

Average golfers would give up the game if they had to putt those greens, even at a stimp of 8. If you think average golfers don't practice their full shots during the week, you're correct. They practice their putting even less, as they are under the assumption that putting is easy.

Once again, ANGC is a great inspiration for the discriminating GCA aficionado alone.

And that's without mentioning the impossibly-green perfection of the course and the debilitating length of the holes from tournament tees, which are played by 1% of 1% of golfers.

[Matthew Rose]

I think it is interesting how many drives we saw in the trees on #17, even without Ike's tree.

[BCowan]

#disagree

The turf may be fast, but all of the greens are protected and the run-up shot is never in play. I watched on #11 as ball after ball caromed toward but never on to the green...so who cares if the turf is fast?

The corridors may be wide, but you can't see the fairways through the trees. Funny that the Ike Tree's demise was big news, yet I saw more and more golfers playing from the arbor than I remember in previous years.

Average golfers would give up the game if they had to putt those greens, even at a stimp of 8. If you think average golfers don't practice their full shots during the week, you're correct. They practice their putting even less, as they are under the assumption that putting is easy.

Once again, ANGC is a great inspiration for the discriminating GCA aficionado alone.

And that's without mentioning the impossibly-green perfection of the course and the debilitating length of the holes from tournament tees, which are played by 1% of 1% of golfers.

+1

[Bill Brightly]

+2

The architecture IS great, but that is not what clubs have attempted to emulate.

[Ari Techner]

I believe the speed and slope of the greens are also responsible for the lack of run-up shots being an option.  It is VERY hard to judge that shot when the ball will instantly speed up when it reaches the putting surface.   Just look at what happened when Bubba tried it on 4 today.   

Augusta's "theory" of the course is certainly great and represents a lot of what we around here value in gca but in reality with the course as it is now and the typical tournament conditions a lot of it just doesn't work on the ground like it does in theory. 

#disagree

The turf may be fast, but all of the greens are protected and the run-up shot is never in play. I watched on #11 as ball after ball caromed toward but never on to the green...so who cares if the turf is fast?

The corridors may be wide, but you can't see the fairways through the trees. Funny that the Ike Tree's demise was big news, yet I saw more and more golfers playing from the arbor than I remember in previous years.

Average golfers would give up the game if they had to putt those greens, even at a stimp of 8. If you think average golfers don't practice their full shots during the week, you're correct. They practice their putting even less, as they are under the assumption that putting is easy.

Once again, ANGC is a great inspiration for the discriminating GCA aficionado alone.

And that's without mentioning the impossibly-green perfection of the course and the debilitating length of the holes from tournament tees, which are played by 1% of 1% of golfers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

... wouldn't we have a lot more golfers who rave about wide corridors, fast turf, and the occasional blind shot?

NO, because golfers revel in and praise difficulty.
The trend over the last 20 years at local clubs has been to narrow the fairways, and when you lobby to widen them, the outcry is that you're making the course easier

... wouldn't we have a lot more golfers who rave about big, deep bunkers and lots of short grass around greens?

NO, because deep bunkers are a product of the terrain and drainage, and without them you can't construct deep bunkers.
Try creating deep bunkers in Southeastern Florida.   They'd be mini-swimming pools

... wouldn't we have a lot more golfers who love to watch their shots feed up and down slopes toward and away from the hole?

YES and NO.

"Yes" in that there's a high degree of fun involved in those putts, but "No" because at the end of the day, "score" counts and those contours and slopes are going to produce higher scores.

The modern day golfer is a "whiner", complaining about the "unfair" nature of anything that doesn't produce favorable results.

Look at the old photos of PV, NGLA and Hollywood and how difficult those courses were, considering the ball and equipment, and that the Sand Wedge and Lob Wedge hadn't been invented yet.

The challenge has been diminished and dumbed down for the golfer and they're not about to make a 180 and embrace those conditions.

We spend a lot of time railing against Augusta's influence within our own clubs. Yet, when it comes to great golf architecture and presentation, it's surely the best example that the average golfer is familiar with. Shouldn't we be using its example to our advantage when it comes to evangelizing for great golf, as opposed to trying to convince people that it's overrated?

Absolutely

[Jason Thurman]

A lot of you are missing the point. Of course club's haven't emulated Augusta's architecture. They haven't emulated Augusta at all, really.

There is plenty of scientific literature that discusses the innate human attraction to green vegetation. People liked green grass and tall trees long before Augusta existed, and before it was televised in color, and before it was televised in HD. They may cite Augusta when they talk about their love of green and trees, but don't confuse that with actual causation. Augusta isn't the reason that golfers love green grass and tall trees.

The Augusta Effect is a myth. And it's too bad, because if Augusta really did influence the retail golfer as much as we think, we'd be playing a game far more similar to the one this site so often sings the praises of. However, the fact that Augusta is such a widely accepted template of what a great golf course should be actually gives those who love strategic, firm and fast, classic golf a lot of ammunition. Rather than demonizing Augusta and telling our fellow club members that the course is overrated, we should instead be telling our fellow club members things like:

     - "Our bunkers are way too shallow - they're nothing like Augusta. Their bunkers are real hazards, like they're supposed to be."

     - "Our rough is way too thick - we should try to maintain it more like Augusta's."

     - "Our greens are much too receptive to long irons - we should try to get them firmer so that balls roll out and feed up and down slopes like at Augusta."

     - "Why do you want to flatten that green? Augusta doesn't have flat greens. Remember Tiger's chip at 16?"

     - "Why do we need six sets of tees? Augusta just has two."

     - "Our fairways are much too soft - we should try to firm them up like the ones at Augusta so that short hitters get some roll and big hitters run off into the trees when they miss."

[Steve Salmen]

Can you begin to guess what the golf course budget is for Augusta?  Sure, you can do a lot of things if there is unlimited money involved.

[BCowan]

I believe clubs go with white bleached sand due to Augusta (Which i hate)

I believe clubs focus on green speeds ''Green speeds arm's race''-Jud T i believe, instead of firmness.  (higher maint budget required)

I believe Southern clubs over seed with rye more due to Augusta (that could be stretch) Which i can't stand.  

Scottish/Aussie clubs could green up there grass if they wanted to.  It is more cultural.  

Also clubs don't want to cut down their trees, well Augusta has them (they also put heaters under some greens).  Flowers prob are more desired from wives of members, when they watch the Masters with their husband.  (higher maint budget) Well Augusta does it.

[Garland Bayley]

Can you begin to guess what the golf course budget is for Augusta?  Sure, you can do a lot of things if there is unlimited money involved.

Yep, that's what I see Jason missing. The incremental cost of water to get green is trivial compared to making bunkers like Augusta, greens like Augusta, green fairways that are fast like Augusta.

Money doesn't grow on trees Jason. Otherwise the courses in the Pacific Northwest with Doug firs would be awash in it.

[Jason Thurman]

Steve, I bet it's much lower than you would expect. Not including the landscaping budget for the course's periphery, Augusta's maintenance actually reflects a lot of sustainable practices that many courses would be wise to implement. Consider:

 - Limited watering - Sure the rye is green in April and looks like they've watered the hell out of it, but the way it played this week proves that they actually don't. I don't know where you live, but the grass at my home course is greener right now than the grass at Augusta was this week and we're yet to turn on the irrigation system this year. Cool season grasses like rye and bent just get really green naturally this time of year.

 - Limited number of tees to maintain - As mentioned before, only two tee boxes per hole.

 - Minimal cart use - Not a lot of turf wear.

 - Large natural areas - It doesn't cost a lot to maintain pine straw in general, though they no doubt spend some labor hours getting the edges as clean as they have them.

Again, the point is not that every course can be Augusta. They can't. But I think most of us would be quite happy if the membership of our home clubs began to implement more of the sustainable and interesting elements of Augusta's architecture and maintenance.

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, Augusta didn't invent America's infatuation with white, bleached things. Bleached white flour has been around forever, and is more popular than whole grain unbleached. White granulated sugar has always been more popular than raw, unrefined, brown sugar. Bleached white eggs are more popular than brown eggs. White sand beaches were popular long before Augusta existed. Even white powder heroin is more popular than black tar or brown powder. Is that all Augusta's fault too?

If the Augusta Effect is real, why don't clubs copy Augusta's green firmness in addition to the quest for fast greens? How is it that the Augusta Effect has been so selective?

As for overseeding, again, human attraction to green grass started long before Georgia was even discovered by European settlers. The pastoral genre of literature dates back to Ancient Greece, and celebrated green grass. Clubs' marketing materials and excited members may insist that they overseed "just like Augusta!", but they don't overseed BECAUSE of Augusta. Augusta and other clubs overseed because human's innately love green grass and vegetation. Women also liked flowers long before The Masters was on TV.

If the Augusta Effect is real, how do you explain the extremely segmented way in which its influence manifests on the average golfer?

[BCowan]

Ben, Augusta didn't invent America's infatuation with white, bleached things. Bleached white flour has been around forever, and is more popular than whole grain unbleached. White granulated sugar has always been more popular than raw, unrefined, brown sugar. Bleached white eggs are more popular than brown eggs. White sand beaches were popular long before Augusta existed. Even white powder heroin is more popular than black tar or brown powder. Is that all Augusta's fault too?I would bet you that even many US open tracks have switched to bleached white sand due to Augusta!

If the Augusta Effect is real, why don't clubs copy Augusta's green firmness in addition to the quest for fast greens? How is it that the Augusta Effect has been so selective?I didn't think Augusta was firm on Sunday.  The weather helped tremendously.  Do you encourage courses to put sub air into their courses.  Yes courses want fast greens and also the avg joe will say the greens were as fast as Augusta.  Greens are too fast for the undulations and not firm enough IMHO.

As for overseeding, again, human attraction to green grass started long before Georgia was even discovered by European settlers. The pastoral genre of literature dates back to Ancient Greece, and celebrated green grass. Clubs' marketing materials and excited members may insist that they overseed "just like Augusta!", but they don't overseed BECAUSE of Augusta. Augusta and other clubs overseed because human's innately love green grass and vegetation. Women also liked flowers long before The Masters was on TV.
luckily #2 doesn't prescribe to that.  That is what a 20 handicap wants, rye grass that makes the ball sit up.  Yes, Augusta is the measuring stick.  Over seeding is costly, especially to the extent Augusta does.
If the Augusta Effect is real, how do you explain the extremely segmented way in which its influence manifests on the average golfer?

just stated it above.

 ''But I think most of us would be quite happy if the membership of our home clubs began to implement more of the sustainable and interesting elements of Augusta's architecture and maintenance.''

   Are you serious?

[George Pazin]

Many people, maybe even most people, learn the wrong lessons from any given situation.

[Matthew Sander]

If the Augusta Effect is real, why don't clubs copy Augusta's green firmness in addition to the quest for fast greens? How is it that the Augusta Effect has been so selective?

If the Augusta Effect is real, how do you explain the extremely segmented way in which its influence manifests on the average golfer?

Many people, maybe even most people, learn the wrong lessons from any given situation.

.

Maybe the explanation could be that it is much easier to try to duplicate what we can see as opposed to reproducing the mufti-faceted aspects of the playing conditions and presentation. Said another way, without actually experiencing the turf conditions and ground contours, some may think that simply reproducing the look will take care of the playing characteristics.

That of course assumes that the "Augusta Effect" actually carries the weight that some assert. I'm not completely sure either way.

[Jason Thurman]

If the Augusta Effect is real, how do you explain the extremely segmented way in which its influence manifests on the average golfer?

just stated it above.

Ben, offering more speculative hypotheses is not the same as offering an argument. Please explain how you can attribute causation to Augusta for human preferences in golf course maintenance that are so easily and closely tied to basic principles of human psychology.

In other words, if you believe the Augusta Effect is real, how do you explain that it only materializes as attraction to green grass, tall trees, and white sand, all of which have been demonstrably attractive to humans since at least the time of the ancient Greek Empire, and not in the form of attraction to other principles of Augusta's presentation?

''But I think most of us would be quite happy if the membership of our home clubs began to implement more of the sustainable and interesting elements of Augusta's architecture and maintenance.''

   Are you serious?

Are you? Do you mean to suggest that you don't enjoy fast and firm conditions, greens that require players to gauge rollout rather than playing "drop and stop" approaches, bunkers that even pros can't get up-and-down from more than 45% of the time, minimal sets of tees, minimal use of carts, rough that encourages players to take risks rather than hack out to the fairway, short grass around greens, angles that matter even for touring pros, and internally contoured greens? It sounds like you might be on the wrong site.

[BCowan]

If the Augusta Effect is real, how do you explain the extremely segmented way in which its influence manifests on the average golfer?

just stated it above.

Ben, offering more speculative hypotheses is not the same as offering an argument. Please explain how you can attribute causation to Augusta for human preferences in golf course maintenance that are so easily and closely tied to basic principles of human psychology.
So all humans are the same?  We all have the same outlook?
In other words, if you believe the Augusta Effect is real, how do you explain that it only materializes as attraction to green grass, tall trees, and white sand, all of which have been demonstrably attractive to humans since at least the time of the ancient Greek Empire, and not in the form of attraction to other principles of Augusta's presentation?
Many courses had more brown sand, if i want white sand i go to the beach.  I am not certain but i would think golf bunkers stemmed from War bunkers.  There isn't white sand in those!

''But I think most of us would be quite happy if the membership of our home clubs began to implement more of the sustainable and interesting elements of Augusta's architecture and maintenance.''

   Are you serious?

Are you? Do you mean to suggest that you don't enjoy fast and firm conditions, greens that require players to gauge rollout rather than playing "drop and stop" approaches, bunkers that even pros can't get up-and-down from more than 45% of the time, minimal sets of tees, minimal use of carts, rough that encourages players to take risks rather than hack out to the fairway, short grass around greens, angles that matter even for touring pros, and internally contoured greens? It sounds like you might be on the wrong site.

Define Fast?  Which stems from firm IMHO.  I don't like green speeds more than 10, and I like bold contours.  Fast follow Firm and is a result IMHO.  So you think having two sets of tees is great, really? Are you trying to create more mens clubs, when woman's golf is growing? I like 4 sets of tees.  Are you advocating for walk behind mowing on tee boxes? .  Many courses have used short grass around the greens, like the course that was renovated in Florida i posted earlier.  A gentlemen complained that I was paired with about the tightness. Oh i like thick long US Open like rough for tournaments, but I also like Minimalist design.  Oh, i just said that.  Are you sure the bunkers are the reason for up and downs and not Green speeds.  I am sure up and downs at the US Open are less than normal weeks on the tour .  What you call sustainable is beyond response.  To call Augusta minimalist in terms of maint, I have to ask you if you are on the wrong site?

[Lou_Duran]

Many people, maybe even most people, learn the wrong lessons from any given situation.

Seems on the money to me.  It never ceases to amaze how two people can look at the same set of "facts" and come to such disparate conclusions.

I agree with much of what Jason suggests.  ANGC presents one of the great spectacles in sports each year and seldom disappoints.  I suspect their ROI, whatever the maintenance budget, is through the roof.  Our home courses could incorporate many of the principles (adjusted for the type of play) without maintaining a second crop of grass for fairways and roughs, and all the flora for "patrons" and the many million television viewers worldwide.  The movement to climate appropriate Bermuda hybrids is well along the way, and the realities of water rationing as a result of ignoring infrastructure needs for many decades will likely make F & F the rule not the exception.  I am not so sure how much the "retail golfer" will enjoy that.   

[Jason Topp]

.  I am not so sure how much the "retail golfer" will enjoy that.   

I had hope that viewpoints were changing on this front but those hopes were seriously undermined on my recent visit to Palm Springs. 

La Quinta Mountain was unable to do their usual overseeding this winter because of some summer floods.  They were very apologetic about the condition of the course when we arrived.  The course had a perfect playing surface with colors ranging from brown to green.  I liked the condition of the course much better than many of the bright green options that were available.

[Garland Bayley]

Ben, Augusta didn't invent America's infatuation with white, bleached things. Bleached white flour has been around forever, and is more popular than whole grain unbleached. White granulated sugar has always been more popular than raw, unrefined, brown sugar. Bleached white eggs are more popular than brown eggs. White sand beaches were popular long before Augusta existed. Even white powder heroin is more popular than black tar or brown powder. Is that all Augusta's fault too?

...

Son, step away from the keyboard!

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, Augusta didn't invent America's infatuation with white, bleached things. Bleached white flour has been around forever, and is more popular than whole grain unbleached. White granulated sugar has always been more popular than raw, unrefined, brown sugar. Bleached white eggs are more popular than brown eggs. White sand beaches were popular long before Augusta existed. Even white powder heroin is more popular than black tar or brown powder. Is that all Augusta's fault too?

...

Son, step away from the keyboard!

I understand Garland. No one likes it when someone proves their perspective so obviously wrong. This must be very hard for you.

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