ANGC - chipping

[BHoover]

Is ANGC the course that places the highest premium on proper execution of chip shots? I can't think of any course in major championship golf where it is more important to hit well struck chip shots than ANGC. I also can't think of  a course that offers more types of chip shots off different lies. Are there any other courses that demand so much when it comes to chipping? TOC? Pinehurst?

[Phil McDade]

Maybe -- although three guys with a lot of success there (Jack, Arnie and Faldo -- 13 wins among them) weren't exactly known for their stellar short games.

[David_Tepper]

Brian H. -

The elevated greens at Royal Dornoch place the course on the short list of courses demanding very solid chipping & pitching.

DT

[Jason Topp]

I find short grass around the greens in southern climates extremely challenging because a shot landing short of the green almost always sticks.  On cooler season grasses, you can land short of the green and predict what will happen thereafter.

Often, at Augusta National, players must land the ball short of the green. 

I think the course rewards players that avoid getting into those awkward positions in the first place. 

[Jordan Caron]

Based on the conditions and green complexes I say yes without a doubt. Firm and tight fairway conditions are so hard to chip off of. Nevermind chipping to firm and fast elevated greens.

That chip Speith hit on 17, I can only dream of and 95% golfers watching don't now how good of a shot that was.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Maybe it's just my recall, but, I didn't notice many guys chipping with 5, 7 or 9 irons.

Most of the recoveries I recall where L-Wedges.
That's pitching, not chipping.

I was also surprised that there wasn't more putting from around the green and I don't believe that I saw one golfer use a rescue or 3-wood around the greens.

Everything seemed aerial, not along the ground.

[Jason Topp]

I was also surprised that there wasn't more putting from around the green and I don't believe that I saw one golfer use a rescue or 3-wood around the greens.

Everything seemed aerial, not along the ground.

Patrick - can those guys get the distance control they need along the ground? 

[John McCarthy]

I was also surprised that there wasn't more putting from around the green and I don't believe that I saw one golfer use a rescue or 3-wood around the greens.

Everything seemed aerial, not along the ground.

Patrick - can those guys get the distance control they need along the ground? 

Stadler the younger did a lot of putting from off the green.  As a lesser player I putt a lot from the closely mown areas.  It just seems more margin of error.

[Brent Hutto]

I thought I saw a lot of putters used from off the greens. I also saw a lot of high-lofted wedge chips/pitches/whatever.

I can't recall any instance where I saw a 7-iron or similar being used to chip. That's probably just not a favored option under those conditions by those players.

Augusta National as set up for the Masters is all about extremes. It doesn't surprise me that it appears to evoke an all or nothing response from the players around the green. If you want a low, running shot then putt it. If you want a shot that checks, then lob it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was also surprised that there wasn't more putting from around the green and I don't believe that I saw one golfer use a rescue or 3-wood around the greens.

Everything seemed aerial, not along the ground.

Patrick - can those guys get the distance control they need along the ground? 

I think they can, I just think that they're more comfortable with the L-Wedge.

I would doubt that they spent alot of time practicing running the ball from the perimeters into the putting surface..

You'll notice that many of them hit decent shots that they just couldn't stop.
Bubba's shot from behind # 8 was a good example.
I have to believe that he could have gotten it closer by putting or wooding.

[Dwight Phelps]

I was also surprised that there wasn't more putting from around the green and I don't believe that I saw one golfer use a rescue or 3-wood around the greens.

Everything seemed aerial, not along the ground.

Patrick - can those guys get the distance control they need along the ground? 

I think they can, I just think that they're more comfortable with the L-Wedge.

I would doubt that they spent alot of time practicing running the ball from the perimeters into the putting surface..

You'll notice that many of them hit decent shots that they just couldn't stop.
Bubba's shot from behind # 8 was a good example.
I have to believe that he could have gotten it closer by putting or wooding.

How much does the relative speed of the fairway/fringe vs. the green play into it? It seemed to me that any shot that moved along the fairway prior to reaching the green had to essentially barely trickle on, or it would be carrying too much speed to hold the green.

As such, it seemed that everyone was either attempting to fly it onto the green's edge at least.  The rare instances I remember of people playing along the ground prior to reaching the green would be putting (i.e. Kuchar & Stadler on #3) or Blixt's and Watson's attempts to chip on from behind #15, neither of which were the most successful short game shots I'd seen all week (hardly an easy spot, it should be noted).

Maybe my memory is faulty, but the only 'successful' shot I can remember from yesterday that ran from the fairway onto the green was Jordan's punch approach on 5 (I think it was 5).

In short, it did not appear that, with the current set up, that the 'ground game' is in use all that much at ANGC.  However, I will note that, IMO, the 'ground game' IS found at Augusta, it just takes a different form than you see pretty much anywhere else - it's all about what your ball does, on the ground, after it lands on the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How much does the relative speed of the fairway/fringe vs. the green play into it? It seemed to me that any shot that moved along the fairway prior to reaching the green had to essentially barely trickle on, or it would be carrying too much speed to hold the green.

Dwight,

I can't speak to conditions this week, although Ran indicated that they were rather dry.

I know that ANGC tries to prepare the course as best they can.

But, sometimes, and I'm sure that you've experienced it, you hit a pitch from 5, 10 or 20 yards, and you hit it perfectly, only to have it hit soft due to the irrigation system and throw radius around the green.

So, I don't know what the "differential" was between the green, apron and fairway.

What's also hard for the viewer to understand is the hole location and the surrounding area.
TV flattens everything so much, but, given fast/firm conditions and a little slope away from the golfer and you have very challenging conditions.

The announcers kept on defining the margins of error in inches.
I don't agree with that and think it was just part of the hype and lore, but, there are preferred areas that you must target if you want optimal results.

Now you and I would have great difficulty in meeting that demand, but, these are the best golfers in the world, so the expectation or challenge is commensurate with their ability.  Unfortunately, they too have margins of error and hit less than perfect shots, and you tend to see the results.

I often view golf as a chain reaction game, where bad decisions/shots beget more bad shots.

A golfer who cuts/fades/slices the ball might play # 16 right at the left greenside bunker when the hole is cut back left.
But, if his ball doesn't cut/fade/slice, he's either in the water or in the bunker, and, if it cuts/fades/slices too much, he's on the upper tier.
Whereas, a golfer who draws/hooks the ball has a wider margin of error on that hole.

Well the same principle applies to many shots on that course.
And, in many instances, a bad decision/execution can result in the golfer having a very, very difficult recovery.

That golf course requires a complete game.
You can't be one dimensional, although, length has it's clear advantages, you have to have a complete game, think well and make good decisions/execute.

As such, it seemed that everyone was either attempting to fly it onto the green's edge at least.  The rare instances I remember of people playing along the ground prior to reaching the green would be putting (i.e. Kuchar & Stadler on #3) or Blixt's and Watson's attempts to chip on from behind #15, neither of which were the most successful short game shots I'd seen all week (hardly an easy spot, it should be noted).

Isn't so much of that decision your comfort level ?
What you feel will work for you at the moment.
And, along with the comfort factor, you also have to factor in what happens if you're not successful.
Now that's probably more an amateur requirement than a PGA Tour Pro requirement, but, it has to be given consideration.


Maybe my memory is faulty, but the only 'successful' shot I can remember from yesterday that ran from the fairway onto the green was Jordan's punch approach on 5 (I think it was 5).

I saw some others but they were mostly when the golfer was recovering from trouble.

In short, it did not appear that, with the current set up, that the 'ground game' is in use all that much at ANGC. 

Then you didn't watch anyone play # 14.

Ditto of for # 18 and other holes.

NO ONE on the PGA Tour plays the ground game as the game of choice, they're airborne all the way.

However, I will note that, IMO, the 'ground game' IS found at Augusta, it just takes a different form than you see pretty much anywhere else - it's all about what your ball does, on the ground, after it lands on the green.

I would agree.
I think the ground game, or opportunities for the ground game, exist in far greater numbers than they do elsewhere on tour.
But, Mother Nature has to cooperate too.

[Dwight Phelps]

Then you didn't watch anyone play # 14.

Ditto of for # 18 and other holes.

NO ONE on the PGA Tour plays the ground game as the game of choice, they're airborne all the way.[/color]

Thanks for the response, Pat.  I did have one question - how does the 'ground game' come into play on 18?  It seemed to me that the best play on 18 was either use the slope to land behind a front pin and bring it back or land it higher up into the green for a back pin.  Is there another option that I missed/have forgotten?

And I will certainly grant your point about PGA Tour players not using the ground game (it still amazes me how many guys at Doral said something like, "But I/he landed it pin high! It's not fair it went in the water!").

As someone who's played there, how would you assess the use/opportunity to run the ball onto 11 from short right? On TV, it looks possible (if more than somewhat complicated by what looks like 1 huge mound), but no one's trying it.  I think Blixt had one land well short and bound down into the water on Sat, but everyone else had to land it on the green or fringe as close as possible to the front on Sun. Is that just preference? Would non-Tour guys be trying more knock downs and running it on?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Then you didn't watch anyone play # 14.

Ditto of for # 18 and other holes.

NO ONE on the PGA Tour plays the ground game as the game of choice, they're airborne all the way.[/color]

Thanks for the response, Pat.  I did have one question - how does the 'ground game' come into play on 18?  It seemed to me that the best play on 18 was either use the slope to land behind a front pin and bring it back or land it higher up into the green for a back pin.  Is there another option that I missed/have forgotten?

In a sentence above I referenced the 18th and using the contour in the green to feed the ball, but, I don't really consider that the true ground game.  You have to have an aerial approach to get to that point.

# 18 doesn't lend itself to running the ball from the DZ to the green, it's uphill, guarded by a huge, deep fronting bunker.
Airborne is the play of choice.

And I will certainly grant your point about PGA Tour players not using the ground game (it still amazes me how many guys at Doral said something like, "But I/he landed it pin high! It's not fair it went in the water!").

I think they're used to the precision their aerial game brings.
When there's plenty of wind and it dries out the putting surfaces, which are already hard to begin with since they're brand new, it conspires to frustrate that aerial accuracy, which in turn erodes their confidence.

As someone who's played there, how would you assess the use/opportunity to run the ball onto 11 from short right?

It's a smart play.

The land funnels the ball to the green from right and short, so why fly it to the center of the green and create significant risk.
Also, if the ball stays short, it's a far easier chip than chipping/pitching from hole high, back toward the water.

On TV, it looks possible (if more than somewhat complicated by what looks like 1 huge mound), but no one's trying it. 

Some did, but, these are the best players in the world and they'd prefer their aerial game to the vagaries created by running the ball into the green

I think Blixt had one land well short and bound down into the water on Sat, but everyone else had to land it on the green or fringe as close as possible to the front on Sun. Is that just preference?

For them, it is.

Would non-Tour guys be trying more knock downs and running it on?

Depends upon your Clint Eastwood persona on the day you play.
Do you feel lucky today...... punk ?

Sometimes, based on the way you've played the previous 10 holes you'll go for it.
Other times you'll run it in.

Every day is different as is the hole location.
When the hole is cut up front, why fly it in with a long club ?

[Niall C]

Maybe it's just my recall, but, I didn't notice many guys chipping with 5, 7 or 9 irons.

Most of the recoveries I recall where L-Wedges.
That's pitching, not chipping.

I was also surprised that there wasn't more putting from around the green and I don't believe that I saw one golfer use a rescue or 3-wood around the greens.

Everything seemed aerial, not along the ground.

Patrick

On the BBC they referred a number of times to the fringes round the greens being cut away from the green such that anyone playing from the fringe was playing into the grain. This according to them makes it harder for chipping. I imagine that it makes it more of a lottery on how the ball reacts hitting the fringe. Thats maybe why most hit lob wedges so as to land it on the green if they could. Shame to think that ANGC mitigated against skillful recovery shots.

Niall

[Brent Hutto]

Niall,

Faldo made the same comment on CBS at the weekend, as did one of the other broadcasters on Thursday or Friday.

[Sean_A]

A very big problem with chipping around Augusta is the greens are so fast, much faster than the fairways.  I think predictable chipping (at the pro level) requires fairways and greens to not have a huge disparity in speed.  Accurately predicting a chip from a surface runing 7 to a surface running 12, and sloped, is very difficult.

Ciao

[Niall C]

I still have an instruction video that Seve did on the short game where he basically advocated using any club as long as the ball landed on the green on the basis that if the ball lands on the green you know how its going to react. On a links course there is little or no difference between the green and the fringe therefore this is not an issue.

The fact that it's an issue at Augusta suggests that f&f isn't everything and that other factors come into play in promoting the ground game.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Maybe it's just my recall, but, I didn't notice many guys chipping with 5, 7 or 9 irons.

Most of the recoveries I recall where L-Wedges.
That's pitching, not chipping.

I was also surprised that there wasn't more putting from around the green and I don't believe that I saw one golfer use a rescue or 3-wood around the greens.

Everything seemed aerial, not along the ground.

Patrick

On the BBC they referred a number of times to the fringes round the greens being cut away from the green such that anyone playing from the fringe was playing into the grain. This according to them makes it harder for chipping. I imagine that it makes it more of a lottery on how the ball reacts hitting the fringe. Thats maybe why most hit lob wedges so as to land it on the green if they could. Shame to think that ANGC mitigated against skillful recovery shots.

Niall,

Not that it's beyond their budget, but think of the practice of mowing the fringes from the green outward.
It's a monumental, labor intensive and time consuming project.

As such, I don't believe it, and I've never heard one player mention it.


Niall

[Zack Molnar]

Mike Weir chipped in on 11 and 12, using a wedge on the former and a hybrid on the latter. Using a putter is definitely a preferred method when short-sided, where as you might try and fly it a decent amount if you have green to work with to eliminate having to navigate a lot of break.

Also, the webcast announcers (former players Rich Beem and Scott McCarron) repeatedly commented that the grain on the fringe and closely mown areas is generally growing into you, which A) adds another level of difficulty to making good contact with the ball B) affects your ability to judge chips when playing up the slopes, and having a completely different speed once it hits the green. I think this adds another reason why players are trying to fly the ball to eliminate some of these unknowns

[BCowan]

Zack,

   If Augusta didn't over seed like #2, I believe you would see more pros hitting lower loft.  I believe the rye grass creates another layer of grain, that would be lessened if it was just dry bermuda.

[Zack Molnar]

Ben,

I completely agree. I was down in the NC sand hills in late Feb, and I used a 8 iron almost exclusively around the greens, and I imagine many of the pros will be executing a similar game plan (since my game is similar to a PGA tour player's  )

[Paul Jones]

I am curious to see how much of a premium chipping will be at Pinehurst for the US Open.

Paul

[Niall C]

Well Patrick, judging by Brent and Zack's comments all the broadcasters believe the grass on the fringes was cut away from the green. On the basis the grass needs to be cut anyway, I don't see that there is that much more effort in cutting it that way, after all at TOC they cut all the fairways in one direction.

Niall 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Well Patrick, judging by Brent and Zack's comments all the broadcasters believe the grass on the fringes was cut away from the green. On the basis the grass needs to be cut anyway, I don't see that there is that much more effort in cutting it that way, after all at TOC they cut all the fairways in one direction.

Niall,

Cutting a fairway in one direction is duck soup compared to the difficulty of cutting a fringe from the inside to out, as compared to a simple circular pass.

Maybe our understanding of what constitutes a "fringe" differs

Niall