Collusion - Yes, I'm a Broken Record

[David Ober]

    I agree it's "professional courtesy."  It just happens to be against the rules, requiring dual disqualification.

Not it does not, so long as they do not agree to do it in advance or at the time.

Now, what should have happened was that an official should have MANDATED that the ball be marked.

[Jon Wiggett]

Will:  Why.  At least take a look.  Maybe it hit a tree and ended up playable.  What's the downside?  If you're right and it's lost or unplayable, you can go back.  OR, you could have hit a provisional. Abandoning without looking or hitting a provisional is NEVER correct strategy.

Jim,

because if the chances are that the ball will be really in a place that you cannot get out of in less than a few strokes and you do not want an opponent finding it thus forcing you to play it as the ball in play. Notice you ignored the reply to the last question!

Jon

[Jim_Coleman]

Jon:  The only explanation for your response is that you're joking.  If you hit a tee shot deep into the woods, you always hit a provisional, as you never know whether you might have a play.  What's the downside?  If you don't hit a provisional, you can look for the ball; find it and play it; or find it and declare it unplayable and return to the tee if you wish.  You certainly feel pretty stupid if you don't declare a provisional and it turns out you have a shot.  That's why the rule is so stupid.  It's ALWAYS a provisional, and player shouldn't be penalized for being stupid or frustrated.  BTW, if you hit a provisional, your opponent still has 5 minutes to find your ball, even if you "abandon" it.  If he does, your provisional isn't in play.

[David_Tepper]

"BTW, if you hit a provisional, your opponent still has 5 minutes to find your ball, even if you "abandon" it.  If he does, your provisional isn't in play."

Jim C. -

Here is a scenario to ponder:

In medal play, Player A hits a horrible drive into the woods (but still in bounds) and says something like "I am not going to even bother looking for that one" before re-teeing and hitting his 2nd ball right down the middle.

Are the other competitors in the group obliged to spend the full 5 minutes looking for A's ball (in the interest of "protecting the field") or can they heed A's decision and not bother looking for the ball. If they do, is that collusion?

DT   

[Niall C]

Jim

I recall doing my bit at Open Qualifying down at Gailes. One of the players pulled his tee shot at a par 3 into a smallish clump of gorse beside the green. He immediately played a second ball which was pretty good and as he walked to the green he made it clear he wasn't interested in looking for the first shot and suggested no one else should bother either.

I've no idea what he declared or didn't declare on the tee but it was plainly obvious he wouldn't have thanked you for finding his first ball. My question to you, which you may already have answered, was he obliged to call his second a provisional or could he have declared the first ball lost ?

Supplementary querstion - having declared his second a provisional and given it was a beauty, was he obliged to look for the first ?

Niall

[Jim_Coleman]

    One is not obliged to look for the first.   But, let's say on a par 3 the first shot may be lost, and the provisional is holed out for 3.  One's opponent may look for the first, even if instructed not to by the player. He may not make a friend, but it may win him the match.

[Niall C]

So basically, at no point can the player say with absolute certainty that his ball is lost until he has looked for 5 mins and not found it ?

Niall

[Jim_Coleman]

   If no one bothers to look, I suppose there is no reason to wait 5 minutes.  (Although if a spectator finds the ball, the provisional doesn't count.  See Mickelson in San Diego.)  But competitors are entitled to 5 minutes if any so choose.  I'm not sure what happens if the player plays the provisional while his opponent is looking, as once the provisional is played (assuming it is past the first ball), it is in play.  I don't know if one must give one's opponent 5 minutes before playing.

[Michael Whitaker]

Competitors have the right to look, but once the player plays another shot with the provisional the first ball is automatically deemed lost.

[Niall C]

Jim/Mike

Thanks for that, however can the player basically declare it lost straight off such that the ball can't be played even if it is found within the five minutes and before he's hit the provisional ?

Niall

[Jim_Coleman]

    Not if he's hit a provisional, I don't think.

[George Pazin]

Jim, as long as you are not willing to accept any scenario where the first ball is obviously not preferable to find, your statement of "The second ball is always a provisional" is sound.

I'd assert there are many many people, including virtually all Rules officials, who understand there are situations where it is more always (joke intended) preferable to abandon a first ball without a search.

Should you choose to tilt, I'd stick with your first thing, the Garcia situation.

[Brent Hutto]

There is no provision for "declaring" a ball 'lost". Only for "declaring" a "provisional".

But if there is no designation of the second ball as provisional then it is in play the moment it is struck. So if you say not a word, tee up a second ball and hit it, that ball is in play. Anyone finding the first ball can do whatever they like with it as it is irrevocably lost.

So to sum up, two actions have standing in the Rules of Golf when a ball is potentially lost or OB:

1) Say the word "provisional" before making a stroke at the second ball.

2) Make a stroke at the second ball without saying "provisional".

Once either of those two options is chosen, no backsies.

[SL_Solow]

Jim;  Your Mickelson example makes the point which you suggest it defeats.  Phil hit what you want classified as a provisional.  After he saw it was perfect, he decided he wanted to play it and was upset that someone found his ball.  The rule is designed to make a player choose whether he wants to abandon his first shot and put another in play or, as a means of speeding up play, hit a provisional in case he can't find the first one.  I understand that in "casual play" folks might want the choice of deciding which ball to play after they find their first one.  But the competitive fairness of the current rule is obvious.  The fact is, the second ball is not "always" a provisional.  How do we know?  Because its only a provisional if the player says so.  Since we don't want to give him a choice after he hits the second bal and after he locates the first one, the rule makes him declare.  Candidly, I wouldn't care if the rule were changed so that he had to say "this ball is in play and I abandon the first" but he has that option after he finds his ball.  The difference is he would go back to the tee.  What should not happen is a situation where the player can make a choice after he knows the result of the second shot.

[Niall C]

There is no provision for "declaring" a ball 'lost". Only for "declaring" a "provisional".

But if there is no designation of the second ball as provisional then it is in play the moment it is struck. So if you say not a word, tee up a second ball and hit it, that ball is in play. Anyone finding the first ball can do whatever they like with it as it is irrevocably lost.

So to sum up, two actions have standing in the Rules of Golf when a ball is potentially lost or OB:

1) Say the word "provisional" before making a stroke at the second ball.

2) Make a stroke at the second ball without saying "provisional".

Once either of those two options is chosen, no backsies.

Thanks Brent, that covers what I was getting at.

Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

Jim/Mike

Thanks for that, however can the player basically declare it lost straight off such that the ball can't be played even if it is found within the five minutes and before he's hit the provisional ?

Niall

If the player hits a second ball and does not declare it a provisional it is in play and the first ball is lost.

If the player hits a second ball and declares it a provisional the first ball is still the ball in play until the five minute search period expires or until the player hits another shot with the provisional from beyond the probable location of the first ball. If the first ball is found (by anyone) before the provisional is advanced then the player MUST abandon the provisional... he has no choice... which is the whole point of a provisional.

[Sean_A]

Learn something new everyday.  I thought I could hit a provisional ball, then look at the area where my first ball is.  If I then decide that I don't want to play a ball from that area even if I find the ball (but the ball has not yet been found), I could declare the provisional ball now in play.  Then, continue to look for the first ball because I am cheap bugger. Apparently this is not allowed unless I hit my provisional ball again (beyond the area of the original ball)?  In truth, I am not sure I have ever seen someone give up the search for a ball because they bwere afraid they would have to play it.  I have seen a lot of guys say its lost, but continue to look for the ball knowing they are going to play the provisional.  Isn't this how the rest of the world plays?

Ciao   

[Kyle Casella]

Jim/Mike

Thanks for that, however can the player basically declare it lost straight off such that the ball can't be played even if it is found within the five minutes and before he's hit the provisional ?

Niall

If the player hits a second ball and does not declare it a provisional it is in play and the first ball is lost.

If the player hits a second ball and declares it a provisional the first ball is still the ball in play until the five minute search period expires or until the player hits another shot with the provisional from beyond the probable location of the first ball. If the first ball is found (by anyone) before the provisional is advanced then the player MUST abandon the provisional... he has no choice... which is the whole point of a provisional.

This is absolutely the correct interpretation. Also keep in mind this type of scenario can also work against the player, not just theoretically in his favor. I have seen the following scenario multiple times in tournaments. A hits a ball somewhere, also declares provisional. Group looks where they think the ball is (call it 2-3 minutes), then A abandons and plays his provisional. After he hits someone 20-30 yards up finds his first ball (within time limit) and it is playable. He can't change his mind just because his first ball is in play. As soon as you strike the next shot with your provisional ball, it is the ball in play.

[Michael Whitaker]

"As soon as you strike the next shot with your provisional ball, it is the ball in play."

With one caveat... the provisional must be struck from beyond the "most likely" location of the original ball. If not, then the original ball is still in play.

[Michael Tamburrini]

I once was playing the par 3 15th at Westerwood when I hit the biggest and most almightily ugly hook with a 7 iron into the middle of the woods.  Miserable, I teed up again and played a provisional (I did mumblingly declare it a provisional whilst trying to avoid making eye contact with my playing partners).  The provisonal was struck much nicer, it bounced a couple of times and rolled sweetly into the hole for a 3.

I never went near the woods to find my original.

[Sven Nilsen]

Anyone else find the idea that you don't even have to look for your first ball to be a bit disingenuous?

[Jon Wiggett]

No Jim I am not joking but you are certainly being either contrary or very stupid though I do not know which. There are certainly occasions when you know you do not want to find a ball in the gorse or other gunge and so put another ball into play straight away. However, as you do not accept that such a situation can exist you will not understand the rule as is shown in this thread.

Jon

[George Pazin]

Anyone else find the idea that you don't even have to look for your first ball to be a bit disingenuous?

No, because others can still look for it. And you're accepting the penalty as well.

Jon, perhaps Jim is the eternal optimist and feels if he can find a ball, he always has a shot.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sorry George, that doesn't make me feel any better about it.  You are assuming the penalty for finding the first ball will match the penalty inherent in playing the provisional.

The whole idea behind a provisional is to get a second ball in play if the first ball cannot be found.  To make the decision that the first is irretrievable without even looking seems highly capricious and ripe for abuse.

It is an attempt to gain an advantage, as the player will only not look for the first ball if they believe they are going to be better off by playing their provisional.

Even worse is the player who tells their caddy or their playing partners they don't want to find the first one, as that removes any doubt of intention.

[JMEvensky]

No, because others can still look for it. And you're accepting the penalty as well.

Many years ago,I was playing in a Mid Am qualifier at Southern Hills. On the long 3-par on the back(13?) with OB left,a guy in my group hit his tee shot on a line toward OB but I THOUGHT I saw it come down in bounds and told him. He announced a provisional, re-loaded, and knocked it in the hole. Just so happened a USGA official was standing there.

The guy almost sprints toward the green while only cursorily looking for his original tee shot. I'm walking about 50 yards behind him and just as soon as he reaches in the hole to pull out his ball, I see his first tee shot --right in the middle of an oak tree's roots.

He asks the USGA official if he has to play his original--but I'm pretty sure he already knew the answer.

Long to short,after several really ugly stares at me and an unplayable,the guy makes 6 after he thought he'd made 3 the hard way.

And he missed qualifying by 2 shots.

I never did make his Christmas card list.