Raynor/Bahto

[Kevin Robinson]

Although his original focus and primary research subject was CBM, it would appear that one of George’s most enduring achievements was that he  rescued Seth Raynor’s life’s work from obscurity...

I don't log on to GCA nearly as much as I used to, so I was shocked and saddened to see that George had passed away recently. A phone conversation with George years ago, and his generosity and enthusiasm in sharing his research, made a huge impression on me. That conversation, the only interaction I ever had with him other than a couple emails, remains one of the most fun, intellectually stimulating things I’ve ever experienced.

Having lived on the property and worked at Yeamans Hall for two years, and perhaps because it was the first REALLY good golf course that I had regular access to, I have always had a great affection for Raynor's style, and an enduring fascination with the mystery surrounding his life and work.

I contacted George several years ago regarding two things, a trip I made to Blowing Rock GC specifically to see if there was any trace of Raynor's work left there, and a long-lost nine hole course from the mid-to-late 20's that sat upon what is now Dunes West GC in Mt. Pleasant (one old green site can be seen on the drive in). We spent almost three hours talking about what I had found in Blowing Rock (at least 6 holes sitting alone, overgrown, and left out of the current configuration) and he excitedly pointed out that the photos I forwarded him possibly revealed Eden, Short, and Punchbowl green sites. The connection between Raynor-through Macdonald's NY friends and what was then an extremely remote part of my home region in Western North Carolina was a mystery that I couldn't resist. The club suffered a clubhouse fire in the 1950's, and lost a great deal of it's history. For years, the club listed Donald Ross as the architect, but the Tuft Archives list Ross's involvement ending well before Raynor's engagement by a new owner of the Green Park Inn-who just happened to be a golf crony of CBM back in New York. This association also led to the nine-hole Statesville CC being built with sand greens sometime later-a club which still exists but with a different, modern golf course. It would appear that Raynor's involvement at Green Park was not a complete re-do of Ross's work, but an addition of nine holes, most of which were then altered to varying degrees and then completely left out of a re-do by someone (Tom Jackson?) in the 80's. I don’t know if he ever had any conversations with the club…but George was reasonably convinced that they, at some point, possessed at least nine holes designed by Raynor-and that some of them, while not in the current routing, still existed as of March 2004.

The conversation eventually drifted away from Blowing Rock/Green Park, and in the course of the next couple hours, we discussed how he taught himself to conduct research-using things I had never even suspected might be useful in identifying the original designer of a course, such as a Depression-era US Geological Survey that included airplane-photography, and what he referred to as the local “hysterical” society. Over the course of that conversation, George shared with me that he suspected that Raynor was involved with far, far more projects than had ever been documented. Although he didn’t mention any specifically, I suppose that some of them are among those that have been discussed here on GCA in the past decade. I was particularly fascinated by a couple of courses built for individuals/families. He mentioned one that sits overgrown on an estate somewhere in New York (Long Island?) inhabited only by a single, very old lady, who would not permit anyone access to the property to check it out! He also mentioned a course built in a very remote location for the Fleischman(?) family somewhere in remote upstate NY.

I can remember working the bag drop at my first club in NC, and seeing a “Friends of Seth Raynor” bag tag. When I asked the owner (who was a 20-year member of Yeamans) who Seth Raynor was, he replied “…I dunno, I think he might have been the old pro there or something…” I can’t imagine that scene happening anywhere, ever again. I suppose George’s planned Raynor book took a back seat to his involvement at Old Macdonald and then his illness – but I am curious – given the examples of Green Park/Blowing Rock and more recently Sunningdale and North Shore – what more is out there yet to discover? And by whom?

[Terry Lavin]

Uncle George was an interesting man in many respects and it's nice to see reflections like this that shed even more light on his passion for his subject.  I don't know if anybody would pick up on his Raynor work, but Bradley Klein would seem like a natural possibility.

[Lou_Duran]

I have it from a good source that George made arrangements for the second volume to be completed and edited.  At the proper time, I am sure its status will be announced by those who know the details.

[Dan Kelly]

I was particularly fascinated by a couple of courses built for individuals/families. He mentioned one that sits overgrown on an estate somewhere in New York (Long Island?) inhabited only by a single, very old lady, who would not permit anyone access to the property to check it out! He also mentioned a course built in a very remote location for the Fleischman(?) family somewhere in remote upstate NY.

You might (might) get some valuable information here: http://www.sandspointgc.org/html/history.html

[Bill_McBride]

Uncle George was an interesting man in many respects and it's nice to see reflections like this that shed even more light on his passion for his subject.  I don't know if anybody would pick up on his Raynor work, but Bradley Klein would seem like a natural possibility.

Depends on whether the existing work is incomplete and needs more, or is complete and needs editing.  I thought Gib did a good job editing the Evangelist. 

[Bob_Huntley]

The last time I saw George was some four years ago at MPCC . He had been asked to make recommendations on what needed to be done to restore the Dunes course to the Raynor, Hunter and MacKenzie template of old. I drove around with him for an hour or so and realized that he certainly knew the history of the place and it’s creators.

I still feel that Rees Jones made it a better course than it was.

Bob


 

[Ian Andrew]

Uncle George was an interesting man in many respects and it's nice to see reflections like this that shed even more light on his passion for his subject.  I don't know if anybody would pick up on his Raynor work, but Bradley Klein would seem like a natural possibility.

Depends on whether the existing work is incomplete and needs more, or is complete and needs editing.  I thought Gib did a good job editing the Evangelist. 

Bill,

George selected the person who has all the information.
So, it's in great hands.

I've also assumed it will cover Banks too from past conversations I had with George.
It's a book that I've been anxious to see for quite some time.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Me, too.  Will stand in line to buy it (or in front of my screen.) Hope an equitable amount of proceeds goes to George's family, with the relief author also doing well on it.

[Nigel Islam]

Yes that is very good news that there is someone to carry on this project.

[Bill_McBride]

Ian, eager to learn who it will be.  Thanks.

[Rees Milikin]

Me, too.  Will stand in line to buy it (or in front of my screen.) Hope an equitable amount of proceeds goes to George's family, with the relief author also doing well on it.

I will do the same. 

This thread is a perfect example of why the GCA discussion group is something special.

[Gib_Papazian]

Everybody needs to take a deep breath and let the dust settle.

Believe me, an announcement will be forthcoming.

Thank you everyone who has written, emailed and called.

The details will be sorted out, but no matter who does what, Shirley (Bahto) will be taken care of and Uncle George's work will be honored and lovingly preserved.

There are now four* ghosts watching, so we better not make any mistakes.

*George and I always disagreed on the Ralph Barton deathbed letter.

We need to have a seance and find out once and for all whether Raynor routed Cypress . . . . . . Geoff and Tom think I'm insane, but that does not make me wrong.  ;-)

[Jim Nugent]

Does anyone know if Raynor designed any courses without templates?  I've often wondered where he would have laid those templates on CPC, had he finished the course. 

[Joe Sponcia]

Kevin,

Your post is why I love gca.  Thank you

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does anyone know if Raynor designed any courses without templates? 

Jim,

Other than the reverse Redan, I think you'd be hard pressed to identify Morris County as a Raynor course.

Yes, there's a short and an Eden, but the way they were fitted into the terrain and their configuration can easily mislead.

I've often wondered where he would have laid those templates on CPC, had he finished the course. 

# 15 could easily have been his sort and # 16 an excellent Biarritz.
An Eden wouldn't be difficult, but perhaps a Redan would

[Will Lozier]

Does anyone know if Raynor designed any courses without templates? 

Jim,

Other than the reverse Redan, I think you'd be hard pressed to identify Morris County as a Raynor course.

Yes, there's a short and an Eden, but the way they were fitted into the terrain and their configuration can easily mislead.

I've often wondered where he would have laid those templates on CPC, had he finished the course. 

# 15 could easily have been his sort and # 16 an excellent Biarritz.
An Eden wouldn't be difficult, but perhaps a Redan would

#7 at CPC could even be seen as a reverse redan although I don't remember the green offering the slope off the dune to truly function as a means to a back right pin.

[Ted Sturges]

Kevin,

Thanks for posting this.  I have not been on the site in awhile and I was not aware of George's passing. 

I spent some good times with George, mostly at a couple of Renaissance Cup events years ago.  When I saw Yeamans Hall Club for the first time in 1991, I inquired with the pro there at the time as to who the architect was (I had never heard of Seth Raynor) and he directed me to Dr. Henry Terrie (Yeamans Green chairman at that time), George Bhato, and Charles B. Ferguson (Fishers Island artist and historian).  I forged friendships with all 3 in the years after that, as all 3 were extremely generous with their time in helping me learn more about Seth Raynor, especially George. 

Great George Bahto story:

I'm in the financial business and an industry friend I had met 25 years ago who worked in NYC was a "golf person".  He and I always talked golf when our paths crossed over the years.  We talked about the game, of courses and of architects.  He knew I was a member at Yeamans, and he was aware of my interest in Raynor's work.  My friend's name was Ed.  One day, out of the blue Ed calls me from NY.  He says he has a great story to tell me...a story to illustrate how small the world is.  Ed lived in NJ, and one Saturday, he's walking down the street of his town, and it is "sidewalk days" in their community...which meant that all the local merchants had put some of their wares out on the sidewalk to sell.  As he's walking down the street, he comes to a dry cleaners.  The dry cleaner has put a bunch of antique golf clubs out in front of the store to sell.  My friend being a golfer, is interested and is checking out the antique clubs.  The store owner comes out and chats him up.  They start talking about golf, golf courses, and architects.  The store owner mentions Seth Raynor.  My friend Ed chimes in "Seth Raynor...I have a friend in Indiana who knows all about Seth Raynor."  The store owner says "Is your friend in Indiana named Ted Sturges?".  My friend Ed was in disbelief that they knew the same person. The owner of that NJ dry cleaner was Mr. George Bahto.  Small world indeed.  My friend Ed still talks about the day he met George.

I hope George is building a biarritz in heaven. 

TS

[Rees Milikin]

I just finished reading The Evangelist of Golf and the work that George did putting that book together is remarkable. 

Also, these stories you guys are telling keep getting better and better.  I never met George, but he must have been a hell of a guy.

[Bill Brightly]

Does anyone know if Raynor designed any courses without templates? 

Jim,

Other than the reverse Redan, I think you'd be hard pressed to identify Morris County as a Raynor course.

Yes, there's a short and an Eden, but the way they were fitted into the terrain and their configuration can easily mislead.

I've often wondered where he would have laid those templates on CPC, had he finished the course. 

# 15 could easily have been his sort and # 16 an excellent Biarritz.
An Eden wouldn't be difficult, but perhaps a Redan would

Pat, there is a classic Raynor plateau green on the par five 9th, including the cool swale that separates the back and left upper tiers.