Best course built without a Topo Map

[Jud_T]

St. Andrews?  Also what's the most recent course built without one?  Did they avail themselves of one at Askernish?  What significant problems have occurred over the years at early courses that didn't have the luxury of a Topo?  Are there cool quirky features on old courses that noone in their right mind with a Topo would attempt today?

[Tony_Muldoon]

No one working from a topo Map would have built the Pit at North Berwick.

[Ally Mcintosh]

No one working from a topo Map would have built the Pit at North Berwick.

Why Tony?

I get the feeling people see

1. GCA's that walk the land = minimalist, natural, design in the field
2. GCA's that route on paper = earth movers, only use a drawing board, never visit site

Topo maps are aids to routing the best course.

Even if Bill Coore spends more proportional time on 'site analysis vs routing on paper' than any other architect, he does this because he is given the time by his clients and I'd be amazed if he doesn't revert to the survey at some point during the design process. Both work in harmony.

Specifically, I'd have been more likely to route The Pit from paper than in the field.... Because the topo wouldn't have shown up the wall...

"Design in the field" is more about the detail than the master plan. And before anyone decides to object, I know full and well that the more time spent on site during the routing process means the better result.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yes, the fact that there is a topo map hanging on the wall at Sand Hills probably alludes to the fact they use it somewhat.  If nothing else, I challenge anyone to remember the 300 plus holes they said they found walking without putting them on paper with a stick centerline!  How else would you communicate it?

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff,

When did the profession start using typos?

[Mark Bourgeois]

In the modern category: TPC Sawgrass?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,

Given the technical challenges of being so close to sea level, and all the drainage engineering that went into it, I suspect topos were used somewhere along the way. Elevations to make that work are critical.  Now, maybe the basic routing, again flat, housing concerns driving some of it, didn't influence the basic pattern to much.  Although, you have to leave developable parcels.  At the same time, they needed a property line map to leave room for spectator mounds, too.  That course took up a lot more acreage than most.

Of course, they could have aligned all that after Pete did a basic routing.  Related question, but I wonder how much the presence of alligators influenced Pete to do most of that on paper?

[DMoriarty]

JTigerman

The question regarding early use of contour maps is a bit tricky because it is difficult to tell whether or not the contour map was created before or after the architect had routed the course.  In other words, it is hard to tell whether he was using it for designing the holes, or as a demonstration tool, or some combination.

The earliest example I am aware of where I think a contour may have been used for design purposes was at Biarritz, probably in the early 1890's.  There is a map showing a stick routing and a couple areas (the "Grouse Moor" and the "Chambre") have contour lines, but not the rest of the course.  These two areas were added/changed around this time, and while the map is undated, I think the map was created in conjunction with these changes.

There are also a few early American examples and references suggesting Willie Dunn may have used a contour map as part of his design method.  Specifically, there is an early contour map of Shinnecock, and reference to the creation of a contour map at Springfield.  

The Biarritz map and the Shinnecock map are somewhere posted.  I'll try to pull them up when I get the chance.

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, the fact that there is a topo map hanging on the wall at Sand Hills probably alludes to the fact they use it somewhat.  If nothing else, I challenge anyone to remember the 300 plus holes they said they found walking without putting them on paper with a stick centerline!  How else would you communicate it?

Actually, I think Sand Hills is the best answer to the original post [not that I am saying it's better than St. Andrews].

I have in my office the final routing for the course on a 5-foot topo map.  But, they didn't use the topo map to find the holes at all ... it was too confusing to look at the contours in the dunes, where it's much harder to read ups from downs.  [On most maps it's easy to follow the drainage and sort out which is which.]  They staked different ideas in the field, and the only paper routing I've seen that they worked with is a thumbnail sketch version on 8.5 x 11 paper, with no topo lines. 

It was only when they settled on the final routing, and flagged out fairways, that they GPS'd everything and put it on the map that Mr. Youngscap gave me, so they could sort out how to do the irrigation design, etc.

[William_G]

thank you Tom! very cool

[Ally Mcintosh]

Give a man a sandy site, 1,000 acres and a load of time and I've no doubt you can get equal results without a topo at your side.

Give him 150 acres and two weeks and the story's a little different.

[Ed Homsey]

On another thread, a course map was posted that showed a 1916 Travis course, drawn on a topographical map. Roscoe-Conkling Park in Utica, NY.  I'll bet that was not the first course drawn on a topographical map.

[Ed Homsey]

do we know if pinehurst #2 or pine valley were designed using topo maps?  i think not, unless someone can prove me wrong.

[DMoriarty]

Map with partial topo lines for Le Phare (Dunn and Dunn), early 1890's:




Dunn's 12 hole course (using 4 of Willie Davis's holes from his previous nine course) and women's course Shinnecock, 1893:

[Michael Whitaker]

Kingsbarns

Shadow Creek

[Dan Moore]

Interesting photo of Bill Coore in the recent Golfweek Magazine standing in his office working on a routing plan.  Looks like he is using what appears to be more or less a large google earth image of Sand Valley.  There are holes going in all directions kinda like the constellation map of Sand Hills.  I hear he has visited the site a couple of times. 

[Tim Johnson]

Ally
Given from what I have read about Carne, I would take a guess and say Eddie Hackett did not use a topo map but simply walked the course. As you have worked on the course, would you know this to be accurate?

[Tom_Doak]

do we know if pinehurst #2 or pine valley were designed using topo maps?  i think not, unless someone can prove me wrong.

There was a topo map for Pine Valley that Crump actually drew his routing on -- well documented on this site.

I don't know if the original layout for Pinehurst #2 had one, because it was done much earlier than most of Ross' other work.  That was vaguely the routing as we know it today, but certainly not the course we know today.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally
Given from what I have read about Carne, I would take a guess and say Eddie Hackett did not use a topo map but simply walked the course. As you have worked on the course, would you know this to be accurate?

D’you know Tim, through all the answers I’ve received about Eddie Hackett over the years, I’ve never directly asked if he used topo surveys on any of his links work… which amazes me…. I must rectify that and report back.

There was a survey done at Carne – I used it when looking at the routing on the new nine – but it may have only been generated back in 2004 when these nine holes were first mooted.

Ally

[Tony_Muldoon]

No one working from a topo Map would have built the Pit at North Berwick.

Why Tony?

I get the feeling people see

1. GCA's that walk the land = minimalist, natural, design in the field
2. GCA's that route on paper = earth movers, only use a drawing board, never visit site

Topo maps are aids to routing the best course.

Even if Bill Coore spends more proportional time on 'site analysis vs routing on paper' than any other architect, he does this because he is given the time by his clients and I'd be amazed if he doesn't revert to the survey at some point during the design process. Both work in harmony.

Specifically, I'd have been more likely to route The Pit from paper than in the field.... Because the topo wouldn't have shown up the wall...

"Design in the field" is more about the detail than the master plan. And before anyone decides to object, I know full and well that the more time spent on site during the routing process means the better result.

Ally

Interesting to get your perspective and a clearer understanding of how these things really work.

But regarding the Pit, my gut feeling remains the same.  Why on earth would you push the green there unless you knew there was wall in front of it? It does make the 14th teeing area a little awkward.  The wall is a dead straight line marking the change of property rights and I would have though most Maps would include that?  To my knowledge it had never been done before and very rarely since.  So I think it was more likely to have happened by playing around with possibilities on site.

 Had you a topo Map you would surely have been drawn to wards using the gravel pit that used to exist on the other side of the fairway opposite the bunkers and incorporate that into the design?

I appreciate this is purely hypothetical but it was the one hole I thought of where it screamed out to me, it was an improvised idea based on what they found.  Someone (OTM?) saw the wall and smiled to himself….

[Ally Mcintosh]

No one working from a topo Map would have built the Pit at North Berwick.

Why Tony?

I get the feeling people see

1. GCA's that walk the land = minimalist, natural, design in the field
2. GCA's that route on paper = earth movers, only use a drawing board, never visit site

Topo maps are aids to routing the best course.

Even if Bill Coore spends more proportional time on 'site analysis vs routing on paper' than any other architect, he does this because he is given the time by his clients and I'd be amazed if he doesn't revert to the survey at some point during the design process. Both work in harmony.

Specifically, I'd have been more likely to route The Pit from paper than in the field.... Because the topo wouldn't have shown up the wall...

"Design in the field" is more about the detail than the master plan. And before anyone decides to object, I know full and well that the more time spent on site during the routing process means the better result.

Ally

Interesting to get your perspective and a clearer understanding of how these things really work.

But regarding the Pit, my gut feeling remains the same.  Why on earth would you push the green there unless you knew there was wall in front of it? It does make the 14th teeing area a little awkward.  The wall is a dead straight line marking the change of property rights and I would have though most Maps would include that?  To my knowledge it had never been done before and very rarely since.  So I think it was more likely to have happened by playing around with possibilities on site.

 Had you a topo Map you would surely have been drawn to wards using the gravel pit that used to exist on the other side of the fairway opposite the bunkers and incorporate that into the design?

I appreciate this is purely hypothetical but it was the one hole I thought of where it screamed out to me, it was an improvised idea based on what they found.  Someone (OTM?) saw the wall and smiled to himself….

Tony - I'm sure you are right.

To be honest, I can't think of the land formations around that green in enough detail to really comment although is it not a much more interesting site for a green than other options around it? My note on the wall was having a little fun. A survey may or may not show up that feature.

[Tim Johnson]

Ally
Although I cant find the articles now, especially the one written by either Shipnuck or Garrity from Sports Illustrated in the late 90's, I am betting Hackett didn't use one for Carne. Pretty much all of the stories revolve around Hackett simply walking the course and seeing the layout as it was presented by mother nature. He didn't like moving tons of soil, rather let the land dictate the routing.

Curious to find out if he had a map at his disposal.

[J.D. Griffith]

Tom,

Is your Sand Hills topo map similar to this?

http://www.mnuzzo.com/plans/NE_Routing.jpg

Do you know where someone could get a similar map to what you have?

Thanks,

J.D.

[Tom_Doak]

J.D.:

Nothing so fancy as that.  It's simply a blueprint outline of 18 holes over a 5-foot contour map.  It was only after I looked at it, that I realized what a gentle part of the property they'd used for the course.

I do not have a huge collection of maps in my office, apart from my own courses, but somehow over the years I have managed to collect topos for Augusta, Oakmont, Merion, Oakland Hills and Royal Melbourne, in addition to a bunch of courses where we are consultants.  The only reason I have them is because someone trusted me not to hand them over to anyone and everyone.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes, the fact that there is a topo map hanging on the wall at Sand Hills probably alludes to the fact they use it somewhat.  If nothing else, I challenge anyone to remember the 300 plus holes they said they found walking without putting them on paper with a stick centerline!  How else would you communicate it?

Jeff,

The "Constellation" routing has about 100 holes on it.

As Ran and I were playing another match at Sand Hills, when we were on the 5th tee, we heard some yelling up above us.

We looked up, and there in a white pickup truck were a handful of GCA.com geeks riding in the back of this pickup truck examining the phantom holes in the "Constellation" routing (map)

But wait, it gets better.
The carts at Sand Hills have lights on them.
They wanted to take the carts, in the dead of night and ride the fairways in an effort to examine the contours in the fairway which are accentuated under those conditions.

This may have been the same night that Ran's roommate, upon leaving the room for dinner, left all the lights on in the room and all the windows and doors open.   When Ran returned from dinner, every bug within 75 miles of Mullen, NE was in his room

One of the great things about the trip, and there were several of them, was the presence of Dick Youngscap who spent time with us and answered many questions..