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Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
"However, there are others on this site who want to believe that they know much more than the rest of us, even though they are not in the industry or have just been involved on a very limited basis with the industry, giving them some sense of self importance."

Michael:

You're starting to sound a bit like the folks you were describing in the quote above.

Just an observation,

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sven:

Where have I ever indicated that I know more about golf courses or golf course architecture than anyone?  I am a hobbyist.  That is it.  My opinion on golf courses is worth something.... the $$$$ I spend on golf--- that is about it.  My guess is that most on this site know more than me.

But you are probably right.  If I had a brain, I would never have commented about Chris Johnston's or Jim Colton's posts....because to each of their camps (which are both quite large and loyal...trust me and my e-mail inbox), they are as infallible as Pope Francis.  

So, in sum, I admit that I was an idiot for posting beyond my original post.  "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt" - Mark Twain and Abe Lincoln (corrected) :)

    
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 11:23:54 AM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
I am saddened to see such venom on this thread and many other threads on a site that is supposed to be fun.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
I am saddened to see such venom on this thread and many other threads on a site that is supposed to be fun.

+1
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm just catching up here.  I hear DR Red is a sweet course, but has a goofy finish.  Anyone have an opinion?  ;D

I don't know about everyone else, but it's 60 degrees in New York, and I'm hitting balls in about a half hour.  So I'm in a good mood.

Cheers,
Kevin

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
I am saddened to see such venom on this thread and many other threads on a site that is supposed to be fun.

Jim, from an observer (and yeah, an occasional participant) of multiple venomous flame wars  on a prominent baseball website, all I can say is "allow me to introduce you to the internet".

My advice to anyone who feels they need to stop posting on a website is.....simply stop posting.  You don't need to announce an exit.  Trust me, I know it's human nature to want to register your protest for posterity, but nobody wins by making a scene.  You'll feel a lot better about yourself when you settle down and (hopefully) decide to reengage. 

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Talk about a big old "who gives a shit" thread.  ::)
H.P.S.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I am saddened to see such venom on this thread and many other threads on a site that is supposed to be fun.

Jim, from an observer (and yeah, an occasional participant) of multiple venomous flame wars  on a prominent baseball website, all I can say is "allow me to introduce you to the internet".

My advice to anyone who feels they need to stop posting on a website is.....simply stop posting.  You don't need to announce an exit.  Trust me, I know it's human nature to want to register your protest for posterity, but nobody wins by making a scene.  You'll feel a lot better about yourself when you settle down and (hopefully) decide to reengage. 

Bill,

I agree. Nobody needs to announce an exit, but it is recurring pattern on the Internet, not just this website. It would be far better if people just cooled off for a bit.
Tim Weiman

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
I am saddened to see such venom on this thread and many other threads on a site that is supposed to be fun.

Jim, from an observer (and yeah, an occasional participant) of multiple venomous flame wars  on a prominent baseball website, all I can say is "allow me to introduce you to the internet".

My advice to anyone who feels they need to stop posting on a website is.....simply stop posting.  You don't need to announce an exit.  Trust me, I know it's human nature to want to register your protest for posterity, but nobody wins by making a scene.  You'll feel a lot better about yourself when you settle down and (hopefully) decide to reengage. 

Bill,

I agree. Nobody needs to announce an exit, but it is recurring pattern on the Internet, not just this website. It would be far better if people just cooled off for a bit.

Yep...and I'm guilty of that too.  And to his credit, Don Mahaffey's exit created no drama at all, and that guys really does know the topics in which he participates.  :'(

The more fun part is announcing your are staying, as I am right now.   :o  Way, WAY too much fun here not to stay and contribute.  And I won't be in any foxhole, I'll just be right here.   ;)



Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
One thread three scalps -- WOW !
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Minimalism. In a different form but it sure feels minimal. In importance, value and gravitas.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark, we've never met, but I play golf.  And I think golf.  And I think more golf.   Reading this thread, looking for insights to two course I love as so special and unique in our golf world, I'm tempted to quote Rodney King.          But I won't.         Shit, guys.  Go pull your own beards, and stop for  just a moment to embrace a walk in the sun with anybody else who might enjoy the same thing.

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
OK, I have been waiting a few days, and now is the time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MiD_U4CHQ

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
I guess I missed something.  I don't understand why this thread is a train wreck or why folks are dropping like flies.  Things seem quite friendly, even the disputes are well controlled.  Bizarre.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
I guess I missed something.  I don't understand why this thread is a train wreck or why folks are dropping like flies.  Things seem quite friendly, even the disputes are well controlled.  Bizarre.

Ciao

I had the same thought, but perhaps that's the sad truth.  It may have had nothing to do with this particular thread, but was just a self-fulfilling prophecy waiting to unfold.  I've found that if people are looking to be offended, they invariably succeed.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Colton one is the most interesting to me. Looks like he felt he had to commit seppuku to tell the truth. Or something like that. Just my interpretation of his Last Posts, by the way. Haven't spoken with him or heard anything from anyone.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
I guess I missed something.  I don't understand why this thread is a train wreck or why folks are dropping like flies.  Things seem quite friendly, even the disputes are well controlled.  Bizarre.

Ciao

I had the same thought, but perhaps that's the sad truth.  It may have had nothing to do with this particular thread, but was just a self-fulfilling prophecy waiting to unfold.  I've found that if people are looking to be offended, they invariably succeed.

This was basically a carry over thread that grew out of a prior train wreck that I can't find at the moment.  Most of the boil was on the other thread, but I think there's been a long, slow, build up to what happened here. 

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
.

Well said. ???

I agree with The Yank.  Except for the one post from a late comer to the thread chastising CJ, this has been mostly a civil discussion of relevant issues.  No one should be threatened by contrary opinions or different preferences.  If we have to couch what we write so carefully as not to possibly offend anyone, F & O discussion is impossible.  And if the egos of some DG participants are so fragile that they can't accept that not everyone else sees the world in the same way, maybe it is better that they pick up their ball and play elsewhere.  It is a Big World out there, and as far as I know, the freedom of association still exists. 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 10:18:58 AM by Lou_Duran »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0

So, in sum, I admit that I was an idiot for posting beyond my original post.  "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt" - Mark Twain

    

I always heard this quote attributed to Abe Lincoln. It certainly predates Mark Twain..

Earlier mention...

Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue.

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/17/remain-silent/

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
This famous quote from Martin Niemöller is why I don't believe silence is always the best option.  If someone tells enough lies, without being questioned, about your course it eventually is accepted as the truth.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
This famous quote from Martin Niemöller is why I don't believe silence is always the best option.  If someone tells enough lies, without being questioned, about your course it eventually is accepted as the truth.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

Kavanaugh, I hear you.  We can't have people lying about golf courses on this site...but to compare golf to Socialism and Jewish persecution is going a bit too far.

I'm with Terry...the gravitas of Dismal River and golf courses and opinions and this whole mess is simply not THAT important. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
That is a great quote that applies to all aspects of life.  In a modern sense when we see someone bullying or mistreating another child that is not our own it is easy to dismiss.  Same goes for racism, drunk driving or even course bashing.  If you do not speak up in all instances you lose credibility when it hits home.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Colton one is the most interesting to me. Looks like he felt he had to commit seppuku to tell the truth. Or something like that. Just my interpretation of his Last Posts, by the way. Haven't spoken with him or heard anything from anyone.

This thread has had its bumps, but any questions have been graciously answered and differing opinions welcomed

Many good folks have participated, and any comment by anyone can and should be open for friendly discussion. 

Jim chose to post and he shared his opinion.  Maybe it was truth to him, or maybe he just wanted to get some things off his chest.  Either way, I support it and him.

It does bear pointing out that Jim stated he didn't play the entire White course (let alone more than once), so I welcome and consider his opinion based on that fact.  He also stated that he had a preconceived "mental block" for the White course due to not "getting it right the first time".  With both of these statements, I considered Jim's post for what it was yet believe, going in, it was impossible for him to like the White course it at all.  While a fresh thought and possible thread idea, I wonder if mental blocks (impeding an open mind) are often present?    All courses (including Jim's) make changes, and I believe a course should be judged having made them.  Last I looked, a number of courses are changed, renovated, or restored every year, among them ANGC and Royal Melbourne.  I also suppose it makes sense to say again that judgement is arbitrary and we are all guided by our own preconceived notions.

I'm bothered that some here assert people can't discuss Jim's post.  Even more so when people have their own posts challenged out of context.  The treatment of Michael George here yesterday was shameful as he has no dog in any fight.

I wonder how the reception would be if I made the exact same post about Jim's course having played it once.  I'd bet I would be shouted down by the same old and tired characters.  To his credit, Jim epitomizes an unabashed and enthusiastic supporter for, and advocate of, his club...and that to me is a good thing.  I do wonder, where were the critical trolls and usual accusations or summary dismissals due to bias?  Even more so after Jim confessed bias, which I also appreciate him doing.  ...Crickets...  And, no, I don't wish to open an extended discussion about Jim's post...he said what he said...and what he said in no way makes him bad.

To me, passing judgement on a course for anything than that which it is today seems but a means to continue the stated "mental block".  With that, the course in question never had a chance.

Like Jim, I've said my piece. 

Is there anything else anyone would like to discuss about either course?  We have covered routing, cart transports, and pork chops pretty well.  While probably not possible, I think Tom and Don Mahaffey could speak volumes about very interesting things done.


William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0

I'm with Terry...the gravitas of Dismal River and golf courses and opinions and this whole mess is simply not THAT important. 

++++++
It's all about the golf!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chris, you asked if there is anything more that people want to discuss.  YES, I have some more items that I need to get addressed.

Last year, we added the surf and turf to the dinner menu.  Excellent addition.  HOWEVER, the BBQ Pork Sandwich, with Montgomery Inn BBQ Sauce, was removed from the lunch menu.  To put it mildly, I was disappointed in this move.  I think it was wrong and I hope that it gets "fixed" this year. 

Vehemently,
MRP
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.