THE DEFINITIVE frank and open discussion about either course Dismal River

[Keith OHalloran]

Don,
I have often wondered about people commenting on course they haven't seen. The first time I went to Dismal, Chris gave us a tour of the course while it was growing in. To be honest, I had no idea what I was looking at. I know Tom Doak gave Sand Hills a 10 in the CG guide during grown in. Question is, do you think that you have to be involved in many building projects to be able to judge a course without seeing it finished? I know it is a bit off topic, bit wondering what you thought?

[Tom_Doak]

Is Dismal really a ski slope course?

I haven't been there, but it doesn't sound like it.  I was referring to the concept and thinking of Tom's description of the terrain mentioned in the Urbina story. (ADDED: Also, I was thinking of the terrain Rock Creek.)  But from the descriptions, it does sound like a key component of the DR course is that much of it plays downhill, and the fact that the ends don't meet allows the golfer to avoid having to play back uphill at the end.

I don't like the one way, ski slope idea either, at least not in theory.  I'm not commenting on DR's routing, because i haven't seen it.

To the first point, the terrain at Dismal is not that steep, but it's somewhere between 200 and 250 feet from the highest point of the course to the lowest, which is significant.  Actually, the first place I saw a routing like this was at Boyne Mountain in Michigan, where they have two 18-hole courses that start on top of the mountain (after a long cart ride up) and finish at the lodge at the bottom.

To David's horror, probably, I did have a routing like this in the works at Rock Creek.  It didn't start all the way up the hill, but it would have started from a point on the entrance road, and finished down at the lodge; I envisioned players being shuttled to the first tee.  However, when the client started talking in terms of people taking golf carts up to the start, we started looking for a way to start the course down at the lodge, too, and make one big loop of it.  I was a bit skeptical we could do it at first, because the total elevation change there is 300 feet, but Eric Iverson found a great starting sequence I hadn't considered, and when we walked it all it seemed workable.  In fact, it's a great course to walk.  

And so is Dismal.  The one thing we're still missing is a little lean-to and a cooler full of beer down by the river behind #18 green, where you can hang out until somebody comes and fetches you ... as long as the deer flies aren't out in force.

[Tom_Doak]

I know Tom Doak gave Sand Hills a 10 in the CG guide during grown in.

Actually, I gave it a 9.  I wouldn't have given it a 10 before I'd played it a couple of times, but I do have a pretty fair sense of how good a course will be if I walk it in the dirt.

Most people have no clue what they are looking at while a course is in construction; they just can't make the mental switch from dirt to grass, and everything looks farther than it is.  It takes a while to get comfortable on construction sites.

[DMoriarty]

Nice to see that the period for frank commentary by anyone and everyone is coming to an end . . .  Is this what you guys had in mind all along with this silly thread?  

Bruce Wellman,

I haven't said anything specific about either course, so why would I have to have seen it?  

PPallotta was ten pages into a detailed critique and match play of the two courses, and he's never seen either one.   I don't recall you calling "bullshit" there.   Is it only those whose opinions you don't like who aren't allowed to mention the course?

Don,  Surely you understand why I have no desire to visit Dismal, and that it has absolutely nothing to do with the courses?  I'd love to hear the reason you think I participate in these threads.  I'll bet it has nothing to do with why I really do.  

[Keith OHalloran]

Sorry to miss quote you, I won't edit it because I will live with my mistake. I appreciate your comments though, it just seemed so difficult to visualize  what was almost there, but not quite yet.

[Bruce Wellmon]

It's Wellmon.

[Don_Mahaffey]

David, to answer the question you pose to Keith, from my POV, it is because you have no desire to go see it in person. No desire to actually see what Tom saw that motivated him to do what he did. You can dismiss that from afar, but this is not an urban course, and what Tom did works at DR, but may not work everywhere.
That, IMO, is the key to design, not some sort of rules you think should be applied as you sit over your keyboard.

That willingness to think differently in a different environment is what makes courses great.

Do you really want golf courses to look like football fields?

And for the life of me, I can't grasp how you can possibly insinuate that it doesn't work, or honor the walking golfer, when you have zero motivation to put your feet on the ground.

[Keith OHalloran]

David,
I can only comment on my own thought, and experiences. The Sand Hills are a very expansive place that make great distances seem small. The guests at Dismal river takes carts to both course whether they are walking the course or not, and it seems like they have unlimited property. All these factors make the experience out there unique. In addition, most guests are at Dismal for a few days and will be playing their second 18 at The Nicklaus course. To me, all these factors mean that not returning to the first tee with the 18th green is not that big a deal.
Now that we are discussing the merits of it, why do you think I it is a big deal?

I will go ahead and admit that I may be biased. My favorite course is Shinnecock, and the 18th green is further and possibly more down hill from the first than Dismal.

[Greg Krueger]

David M, I must have missed it, but why do you have no intention or desire to visit DR? Honest question, no snark intended.

[John Kavanaugh]

So if we just build another clubhouse between the 18th green and 1st tee we can end this argument?  Sadly that would greatly diminish the view from the fire pit. I wouldn't want it if it were a gift.

[Chris Shaida]

I admit I am writing this with a helmet on but....
If Tom said that he put the best 18 holes on the ground, why would anyone care that the course does not end where it starts? We are not talking about your local GC where you play 18, have lunch with the boys and head home. You are in the sand hills, you take carts to your cabin, you don't go home for days. Why the consternation on where you finish?

Keith,

I don't care what happens at Dismal, specifically, or who walks or rides where.  I do care about what happens with golf course architecture generally, and when one of the leading designers builds an "open-jaw" course in the Sand Hills, then that is worth exploring.   And it is also worth exploring how applicable the justification will be at other courses, because as soon as the next guy wants to do something similar, they will surely say "Well, Tom Doak did it at Dismal Red."  

The lady doth protest too much.  So now, David, you are protecting all of golf course architecture generally, must be quite a burden.  I've walked from the club house to the first tee of the Red, from the 18th back to the 1st, and from the 18th back to the clubhouse. Every one of those walks is lovely.  I don't get at all why the self-appointed defenders of the purity of walking in golf somehow don't get that a walk to and from the first tee might actually be ...pure.  Think just a bit before blathering further.

[Brian Finn]

I don't get at all why the self-appointed defenders of the purity of walking in golf somehow don't get that a walk to and from the first tee might actually be ...pure.

Case closed.

[DMoriarty]

Tom Doak,

Boyne should install a chairlift for carts, and then they'd be on to something.

I am not quite sure I'd call it "horror" but I was pretty surprised when I first heard about the scratched idea of a remote start at Rock Creek. That was back when the course was being constructed. I was very glad that you and Eric were able to work out a traditional routing, and I think the course benefited.  It seems the exact same concerns about carts would exist at Dismal, and as you've explained you didn't really have a choice at Dismal.  But the issue of putting butts in carts that you acknowledged at Rock Creek remains at Dismal whether you had a choice to do something different or not, doesn't it?

To be fair about Rock Creek, it is easy for me to say it was the right decision, because when I first saw it the routing was already roughly in place.  I am not sure what I would have thought about the site if I was looking at raw ground. And I agree it is a good walking course, and one that was well worth the effort to work out. I don't know exactly where you would have started, but the first section of the course - that part that you presumably would have been left out - is tremendous, and Rock Creek (and the scratched routing) is one reason why I think this topic is so interesting to me.

If you had decided to go with the "open-jaw" routing at RC, do you think it would have been as good a course?   Do you think your decision to close the loop has made it more of a walking course for the members, as opposed to what it would have been if RC had been putting them in carts and sending them out to the first tee?

[Tim_Weiman]

I admit I am writing this with a helmet on but....
If Tom said that he put the best 18 holes on the ground, why would anyone care that the course does not end where it starts? We are not talking about your local GC where you play 18, have lunch with the boys and head home. You are in the sand hills, you take carts to your cabin, you don't go home for days. Why the consternation on where you finish?

Keith,

I don't care what happens at Dismal, specifically, or who walks or rides where.  I do care about what happens with golf course architecture generally, and when one of the leading designers builds an "open-jaw" course in the Sand Hills, then that is worth exploring.   And it is also worth exploring how applicable the justification will be at other courses, because as soon as the next guy wants to do something similar, they will surely say "Well, Tom Doak did it at Dismal Red."  

The lady doth protest too much.  So now, David, you are protecting all of golf course architecture generally, must be quite a burden.  I've walked from the club house to the first tee of the Red, from the 18th back to the 1st, and from the 18th back to the clubhouse. Every one of those walks is lovely.  I don't get at all why the self-appointed defenders of the purity of walking in golf somehow don't get that a walk to and from the first tee might actually be ...pure.  Think just a bit before blathering further.

Chris,

I don't think it is fair to criticize David or anyone else for being concerned about "golf course architecture generally".  There is nothing wrong with that.

Whether a particular course or feature is good or bad for "golf course architecture generally" is a big part of what we discuss. Wasn't it also part of Mackenzie's writing on the subject?

[Keith OHalloran]

Tim,
How is and 18yh hole returning 400 yards (guessing) from the first tee bad for architecture generally?

[Chris Shaida]

Chris,

I don't think it is fair to criticize David or anyone else for being concerned about "golf course architecture generally".  There is nothing wrong with that.

Whether a particular course or feature is good or bad for "golf course architecture generally" is a big part of what we discuss. Wasn't it also part of Mackenzie's writing on the subject?

Criticize? Au contraire, I was sympathizing! Such burdens! The shoulder getting lower and lower to the ground! Making it harder to walk! to or from the first tee! In a beautiful place! On a beautiful day!

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,
How is and 18yh hole returning 400 yards (guessing) from the first tee bad for architecture generally?

Keith,

I am not arguing that specific example. What I am saying is that if someone cares to there is nothing wrong with that, even if they haven't seen the specific course under discussion.

Keep in mind that most courses we discuss here haven't been seen by most GCA members. People who have seen a course can provide insight about a course from their first hand experience. People who haven't seen a course can still participate, but I think it is usually best in two forms:
1) asking questions, 2) making comments about golf course architecture generally.

Do you see that differently?

[DMoriarty]

I think some of you guys need to take a step back out of my face.  I haven't criticized your damn course.  I am talking about a general routing issue.  Grow up.  

[Grant Saunders]

Is it an unusual sensation playing a hole you know to be the 18th yet there is no clubhouse or infrastructure either nearby or in fact framing the hole?

Off the top of my head, I cant personally recall ever playing an 18th without the clubhouse featuring in part of the hole in terms of its location. To me, it has the impact of making the finishing hole feel defined in terms of being the end of your round.

Does playing a hole that is the 18th only in number give that same impact as a climax to the round or does it somehow seem like stopping randomly in the middle of a round?

[Keith OHalloran]

Tim,
I completely agree with you. I think asking questions is always the best way to learn. I don't think you need to have seen or played a course to want to learn about it.  I would like to learn why it is being questioned as a big deal? What are your specific objections to this type of layout?

[John Kavanaugh]

Is it an unusual sensation playing a hole you know to be the 18th yet there is no clubhouse or infrastructure either nearby or in fact framing the hole?

Off the top of my head, I cant personally recall ever playing an 18th without the clubhouse featuring in part of the hole in terms of its location. To me, it has the impact of making the finishing hole feel defined in terms of being the end of your round.

Does playing a hole that is the 18th only in number give that same impact as a climax to the round or does it somehow seem like stopping randomly in the middle of a round?

Grant,

The clubhouse is a backdrop to the 18th green. Once you finally reach the river and finish there is no question that you are done.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think some of you guys need to take a step back out of my face.  I haven't criticized your damn course.  I am talking about a general routing issue.  Grow up.  

How is stating that the open jawed routing of Dismal is a threat to all future architecture not a criticism of the course?  The fact remains that if we just built another clubhouse in the valley it would no longer be open jawed. 

Is an open jawed routing less than ideal?  That is a simple question. Yes or no?  If yes then you are criticizing the course. I just want you to stop lying.

Btw.  Congrats on coining the term open jawed. I would have been proud of that myself back in the day. It is discreetly insulting on so many levels.

[Jim Colton]

I do agree with David that the topic is fair game for discussion. As far as I know, 99.9% of golf courses and all of the top golf courses end roughly when they start. It says a lot about Tom to a) go across the road and b) go against the grain in order to build the best golf course possible. Would Tiger have had the stones to do that with his first design had he gotten the job?

It probably could start a trend of at least considering an open jaw routing when the site doesn't allow for something more traditional. I think I rather have the maximum number of quality golf holes.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,
I completely agree with you. I think asking questions is always the best way to learn. I don't think you need to have seen or played a course to want to learn about it.  I would like to learn why it is being questioned as a big deal? What are your specific objections to this type of layout?

Keith,

I guess I am a fan of classic type layouts like the original course at Stonewall. There is an intimacy to it - 1st tee by pro shop, 18th green not far from the bar! - that I like.

But, appreciating the world of golf architecture is supposed to be a journey that takes you to different venues where you play different courses. So, the sand hills type courses probably shouldn't try to mimic Main Line Philadelphia courses: Dismal should not try to be Merion. If it did, what would be the point of going there?

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,

The 18th green at Victoria National is more than 400 yds from the 18th green to the 1st tee. The clubhouse in between discounts the distance.

How many of your hundred hole hikers take carts between each 18?  Who doesn't like to sit down for a few minutes between rounds and settle bets or wait on friends. Even a security guard can use a chair now and then.