THE DEFINITIVE frank and open discussion about either course Dismal River

[Chris Johnston]

This thread is dedicated to David Moriarty and is THE definitive frank and open discussion about Dismal River.  Feel free to discuss either course, any hole, starts, carts, and finishes, fun, and YES! even the pork chop!  Mr. Moriarty believes such discussions are lacking, so, without further ado...

Gentlemen, start your engines!

[Tom_Doak]

I am reserving my opinion about both golf courses for two more years, until I am obliged to publish my opinions in print, and have a duty to the readers who have paid for said opinion. 

Luckily, there's no rule here that you are REQUIRED to post your opinion on something, or I'd probably have been shot in the back by now.  But I don't own a gun, so nobody needs to worry about my reaction.  Generally, as with Pete Dye, I'm confident enough in what I've built to know if you are right or wrong.

[DMoriarty]

Chris,

Thank you for making my point for me.  Your absurd overreaction to my comments on the other thread makes my point better than I ever could. 

[Chris Johnston]

Chris,

Thank you for making my point for me.  Your absurd overreaction to my comments on the other thread makes my point better than I ever could. 

David,

Not a thing absurd - you wanted open and frank discussion, and here is your chance.  Come into the sunlight, good sir. 

[Terry Lavin]

Gentlemen, please. This contretemps is over.

[Chris Johnston]

Sorry, Judge.  My goal is to foster frank, open and honest discussion.  One (or many) here believes it is being thwarted.

Here is his/their chance to weight in with no squelching, thwarting, belching or farting.

Have at it gents!

[Sven Nilsen]

I'll be your huckleberry.

1.  Question for Tom - Is the Red the best routing you've ever done?

2.  Question for CJ - What changes are being made to the White course and why?

Sven

[Cliff Walston]

Here is the DEFINITIVE thing about Dismal for me.  It begins and ends with Chris.  Is he proud of the facility that his family owns and his contributions to it?  Absolutely, as he should be.  That may rub some wrong on here.  Why?  I am not sure.  What I do know is that I am unaware of any other golf club in the US, much less one with two courses of this quality and only a 4 1/2 month season, that is so open and accessible to anyone with the ability to compose a simple, polite email request.  Chris opens his club up, eager to share it with all, in a way that I have never seen of a club of its caliber.  In fact, he, through Eric's 5th Major, opens it up to the entire GCA community once a year at a significant discount so that anyone can come and enjoy it.  In that regard, I don't think there is another private club in the US that embodies the accessibility that I have come to appreciate and respect of the great UK clubs, particularly those in Scotland.  Course tastes are a matter of personal preference and reasonable minds can differ on where the two Dismal courses rank in the grand scheme of things.  What can't be disputed is Chris's welcoming, jovial nature.  "Come one, come all, and be yourself.  Because I sure as hell am going to be myself."  Best I can tell that is Chris's motto.  Maybe a bit too much for some, but absolutely spot on for me, and I respect that.  This is what convinced me to join and motivates me to write the check each year (which is a significant sum for golf for my young and growing family), not the golf.  
But damn, the golf is great....That's just makes it all the better.

Besides, who couldn't love this place?

 

[Jim Colton]

Chris,

 I tried to understand the evolution of Dismal River White in a thread once, which was not very well received. I do have a genuine interest in its evolution. I see parallels with Erin Hills, another course that opened around the same time with next to no earth moving that was changed a lot after the fact. I am equally interested in its evolution, perhaps even more so, as it's relatively close to my backyard and I once did a routing on the same topo.

 So that said, I was looking at a google aerial of the 13th hole at Dismal White and am still trying to figure out what is going on there. Is the hole moving to newer, lower left green? I think Adam Clayman mentioned there was another green complex originally? Where was it in relationship to the right green? Is it in the upper right of the pic below?

[Cliff Walston]

Chris,

 I tried to understand the evolution of Dismal River White in a thread once, which was not very well received. I do have a genuine interest in its evolution. I see parallels with Erin Hills, another course that opened around the same time with next to no earth moving that was changed a lot after the fact. I am equally interested in its evolution, perhaps even more so, as it's relatively close to my backyard and I once did a routing on the same topo.

 So that said, I was looking at a google aerial of the 13th hole at Dismal White and am still trying to figure out what is going on there. Is the hole moving to newer, lower left green. I think Adam Clayman mentioned there was another green complex originally? Where was it in relationship to the right green.

 I'll post an aerial picture in a few minutes...

I am curious about Chris's response too.  I have played down to the lower left green and like it.  If I had a vote, I would keep both greens and vary it day by day.  I don't love the upper green for a number of reasons and think the variety/quirk would fit well with the rest of the course and add some interesting options of playing from the upper fairway to the lower green, lower fairway to upper green, etc. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Chris,

One of these days I'd like to see Dismal, but can you share some perspective on the location of 18th?

Distance back to clubhouse? Topography for walk back? Attractiveness of the green site to construct the hole? How much you and Tom might have debated the issue before construction? What ultimately determined the decision to do something unconventional (like the starting location for #1at Lost Dunes)?

Thanks!

[Tom_Doak]

1.  Question for Tom - Is the Red the best routing you've ever done?

I don't know how to answer.  Routing is about making the best use of the features of the property at your disposal, and I think the routing at Dismal does that terrifically well.  But the same could be said for Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, Rock Creek, St. Andrews Beach, and Ballyneal.

Dismal is "better" than those others in two respects: 

1.  the green to tee walks are even less, because I place more emphasis on that than I used to; and
2.  there are actually more greens at Dismal where we did zero grading, than on any other course I've built.

But, as Jack Nicklaus once said to me, why would a golfer care about the latter point?  And am I just more likely to leave the green alone now, or wasn't it just a piece of property with more land flat enough for untouched green sites?

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:

Almost sounds like in some ways it was the easiest course to route, and I don't mean that in a negative way.

Would you say Lost Dunes was your hardest course to route, or did the limitations of the property almost dictate the layout (leaving aside the decision to start on the other side of the highway)?

Sven

[Tim Bert]

1.  Question for Tom - Is the Red the best routing you've ever done?

I don't know how to answer.  Routing is about making the best use of the features of the property at your disposal, and I think the routing at Dismal does that terrifically well.  But the same could be said for Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, Rock Creek, St. Andrews Beach, and Ballyneal.

Dismal is "better" than those others in two respects: 

1.  the green to tee walks are even less, because I place more emphasis on that than I used to; and
2.  there are actually more greens at Dismal where we did zero grading, than on any other course I've built.

But, as Jack Nicklaus once said to me, why would a golfer care about the latter point?  And am I just more likely to leave the green alone now, or wasn't it just a piece of property with more land flat enough for untouched green sites?

Tom I have been trying to figure out how to ask the question about 18 not returning to 1 in a manner that doesn't incur the wrath of others so I thank you for giving me the forum and also the lead in.

Up front please recognize I have not visited dismal so this isn't a criticism of that particular course.  It is an inability to understand the importance of your point number one without also addressing the walk back to hole number one.

If you aren't walking then you don't necessarily care about either. If you are walking then you'd probably prefer both. I get that you can get away with it since it is private and they have an ability to have return carts waiting to take eager walking golfers back to one but I am intrigued to know if you at all wrestled with this concept or immediately came to the conclusion that the return to one didn't matter.

I can totally appreciate that it likely yielded better holes based on everything I have seen I guess I am just shocked a move like that came from you and not at the RTJ Trail.

I recognize the sensitivity here given the call out from Moriarty in the other thread and I am not trying to stoke that fire but I am genuinely interested in the conversations or mindset that led you there.

It seems if this approach is fair game in routing a course going forward that many architects could find better holes if there wasn't a defined stopping point for the course.

Finally - Could you have improved the routing of either Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal if you had employed this technique?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Almost sounds like in some ways it was the easiest course to route, and I don't mean that in a negative way.

Would you say Lost Dunes was your hardest course to route, or did the limitations of the property almost dictate the layout (leaving aside the decision to start on the other side of the highway)?

Sven

Actually, no, it wasn't the easiest course to route.  All those people who say "you could lay out holes in any direction in the sand hills" have never seen how many blind holes they'd wind up with, out of 18.  Certainly, I figured out the routing faster and easier at Sebonack and St. Andrews Beach, even though there was more construction work to do at Sebonack.

Lost Dunes had lots of complications, but not so many options.

The hardest ones are those where the parameters keep changing ... the Bay of Dreams [changed owners mid-stream, and each had their own ideas about what land should be reserved for development], or the second course at Stonewall [where we had to put several parcels of land together, and not everyone would sell].  Having thousands of acres [as at Rock Creek] is another complication, it takes much more time to decide where to start.  I didn't even see the land for the golf course on my first visit to the Ranch.

[Chris Johnston]

Gents,

I will answer the questions posted thus far, but will not do so going forward on this thread.  Some here feel apparently uncomfortable with my participating and I certainly don't want that to inhibit discussion at all.  I can understand that some questions would best be served with a response, but that places me in a no win situation.  If I answer candidly, skunks will call it marketing.  I didn't plan to participate much in this thread as I never would dream to inhibit others here. 

Cliff:  Thank you.  If we can't be ourselves, we don't have anything.  We aren't serving a higher or sacred purpose, we aren't curing disease, we are having fun.

Sven:  What changes are being made to the White course and why?  No decisions yet but we are always looking and, believe it or not, listen to feedback.  Most course have slow spots, and spots where looking for balls is more than normal.  We believe it is a living work and the better we know her, the more opportunities may be revealed.  Opportunities can be both architectural and/or related to mainetenance.  Hole #2 is double blind, long, and very wind affected.  The stretch of 5 an 6 is very popular, but both abrupt and extremely (extremely!) challenging to maintain.  I love the daring of hole #10 but mowing the transition from front to back it is more than challenging. - love the front but may see an opportunity in the back.  Hole #14 is both very tough, and extremely challenging to maintain.  There are several bunkers that we probably don't need, and we can always widen spots on an already wide course to better accommodate wind.  We'll know more in the next few months and I'll happily share here any changes after consulting with a host of related constituencies, including the Unofficial Dismal River Golf Committee.

Jim:  wrt 13...The hole as she's played is the hole that we will keep.  Before we became involved, a prior group added a new fairway and green - we will keep most of the fairway but lose the new green as that version would make for three very long holes is a row.  There new hole is a gift of sorts, as we will rework the current green as it has settled over time and isn't what was intended.  This happens more than you know in the Sandhills.  The new hole may be a temp hole while we do the necessary work, and then the green will be unplugged.  The fairway will be kept as wider is better out here, and actually provides more variety wrt alternatives/opportunities.

I wasn't there at the beginning (I was at Sand Hills then) but understand the original 13th was deemed "too hard" by early members.  I never saw it so can't provide comment.  The green was moved (40 yards closer?) to the current location, making the hole a really fun shorter par 4 in a neat setting, and between two longer and stout tests.  A better fit in my book and, with the wider fairway, a cool hole.  One of my favorites.

Tim:  Distance back to clubhouse? Topography for walk back? Attractiveness of the green site to construct the hole? How much you and Tom might have debated the issue before construction? What ultimately determined the decision to do something unconventional (like the starting location for #1at Lost Dunes)?  Distance back to the clubhouse is less than 1 mile but you won't walk back.  Green site is absolutely stunning, completely natural, with a 300 ft bluff across the Dismal River.  Very unique and an outstanding golf hole with better than outstanding visuals. 

I don't recall that Tom and I ever debated, he was the designer and I really wanted to stay out of his way.  If he neede me, he found me, but he didn't need me much and that suited me fine.  I do recall Tom asking me how important to me it was for the new course to "finish where it started", so I assumed his idea would be different.  My response was simple, and still is today...we wanted the best 18 holes we could have in a routing, and we didn't want to sacrifice quality of golf.  Some may find that odd but, if you think about it, I bet most would agree.  I also didn't care about yardage or aggregate par.  We just wanted good golf, turned Tom loose to do what he does, and he did very, very well.   

[Tom_Doak]

Tom I have been trying to figure out how to ask the question about 18 not returning to 1 in a manner that doesn't incur the wrath of others so I thank you for giving me the forum and also the lead in.

Up front please recognize I have not visited dismal so this isn't a criticism of that particular course.  It is an inability to understand the importance of your point number one without also addressing the walk back to hole number one.

If you aren't walking then you don't necessarily care about either. If you are walking then you'd probably prefer both. I get that you can get away with it since it is private and they have an ability to have return carts waiting to take eager walking golfers back to one but I am intrigued to know if you at all wrestled with this concept or immediately came to the conclusion that the return to one didn't matter.

I can totally appreciate that it likely yielded better holes based on everything I have seen I guess I am just shocked a move like that came from you and not at the RTJ Trail.

I recognize the sensitivity here given the call out from Moriarty in the other thread and I am not trying to stoke that fire but I am genuinely interested in the conversations or mindset that led you there.

It seems if this approach is fair game in routing a course going forward that many architects could find better holes if there wasn't a defined stopping point for the course.

Finally - Could you have improved the routing of either Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal if you had employed this technique?

Tim -

I don't mind discussing the decision.  I think I discussed it well before, but since that thread was full of vitriol [some of it my own], I'm happy to post here and not have to refer back to it.

First, the idea of a remote start and a remote finish was not new to me.  I'd done it once before, at Black Forest in Michigan, for basically the same reasons.

In both cases, we were building a course on an existing project that had not originally anticipated the location of the new course.  The land around the clubhouse had been sold off to founding members, plus it was very steep, and there was no way to start OR finish the golf course at the clubhouse.  And in both cases, the client said to consider using any of the other land that I wanted to.

The starting point I chose in each case was about as close to the clubhouse as I could find a good golf hole.  (At Black Forest, I had to convince the client to buy back three or four undeveloped lots from their owners, comprising the first 150 yards of the hole, so that players didn't have to drive out all the way to the current 2nd tee.  At Dismal, it's even farther from the clubhouse -- I think it's 3/4 of a mile.)  In both cases, this starting point was about 100 feet higher than the most attractive part of the parcel, where I intended to locate some golf holes.

I could have chosen to build an inferior hole or two to get back up to the starting point, right at the end of the round.  But why would I want to do that, if 95% of players were then going to hop in their carts and drive back to the clubhouse?  No one walks to the first tee at Dismal River -- on either course -- and no one walks in from the 18th green.  Between 1 and 18, the "open-jaw" solution is easier to walk, because you don't have to play back up the hill at the end.  The only people who would prefer that I'd closed the loop are those who want to go right back to the first tee and play some more ... and usually, they will have a cart at their disposal to do just that.  If not, they can walk up the same hill they would have had to play up, and go back to the first tee.

I do not think this is a solution you'd want to look at for most golf courses, like Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal.  At Ballyneal, I might have been able to include a couple of great holes that missed the cut because you couldn't get there and back, but the final call was that they weren't significantly better than the holes we did build.]  If you can start and finish at the clubhouse, most everyone is going to prefer that solution, myself included ... though if someone else decides not to, I'd judge it on the merits.  But when you CAN'T start or finish close to home, and there's no budget to build a remote clubhouse, the question is how much it matters whether the course ends exactly where it starts.  

I looked at the options, and decided it didn't matter much.  I knew not everyone would agree, though I'm confident they couldn't come up with a better plan.  If the discussion is about whether this makes the golf course "less than ideal" and automatically deducts two points from its GOLF DIGEST ballot, I would question whether they were just making up a rule to protect their favorite course as superior, but we shouldn't be building courses for ratings -- we should be building the best course we can.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,

Thanks for your response. It is a fine example of why you shouldn't even consider not commenting on your own projects.

Now, if there is some way you can make Geoff Shackelford's "The Good Doctor Returns" actually come true, I would appreciate it. I have a few questions for the Doctor!

[Jud_T]

Here's a question;  how is it that the course isn't officially open yet is already rated?  Is this common practice? 

[Tom_Doak]

Here's a question;  how is it that the course isn't officially open yet is already rated?  Is this common practice? 

That's up to multiple different magazine editors, not to me.

[Brian Finn]

I would really like to hear more about the pork chop.  Seriously.   I have been waiting nearly 3 years to try it, and can't wait until late June.  How is the pork chop prepared and cooked?  Is it breaded and fried?  Marinated then grilled?  How big are we talking?  What kind of potatoes go best with it?  I lean toward au gratin, but fear that might take away from the main event here.  Is it the kind of meal you love, but only have once a visit, or am I potentially looking at 3-4 of these in a long weekend?  Can someone post a photo?  Thanks. Can't wait to visit Dismal.

[Brandon Urban]

I would really like to hear more about the pork chop.  Seriously.   I have been waiting nearly 3 years to try it, and can't wait until late June.  How is the pork chop prepared and cooked?  Is it breaded and fried?  Marinated then grilled?  How big are we talking?  What kind of potatoes go best with it?  I lean toward au gratin, but fear that might take away from the main event here.  Is it the kind of meal you love, but only have once a visit, or am I potentially looking at 3-4 of these in a long weekend?  Can someone post a photo?  Thanks. Can't wait to visit Dismal.

Brian,

I'm not privy to how it's prepared, but I could eat one for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Every day. Can't wait until June.

[Chris Johnston]

Here's a question;  how is it that the course isn't officially open yet is already rated?  Is this common practice? 

Hi Jud.  

No, was probably my naivety.  We were never contacted by any of the magazines asking us if we wished to be rated, and I honestly thought "preview year" meant not officially open, meaning let wait to rate it.  Eric requested, as part of the 5th Major last year, that the new course could be played in the event.  And that was a week before the unofficial preview opening for members and I have no idea who was, and wasn't a rater..  I told Eric it was what it was at that time, but it was playable...in infant form.  Infant= not optimal.  Remember, many of the guys at that event walked the course with a very gracious Tom the previous year...mostly in the dirt.

With that foundation, raters did come and they, obviously, did rate.  Candidly, I would have preferred the rating wait until next year with ratings beginning when we were ready and the course was closer to maturity.  I suppose it was the lack of new courses and, again, my naivety.  I take full responsibility for it.  I'd be curious to know how many ratings came in before we installed a planned and long awaited bridge over an obvious costraint.

We don't fuss much with ratings as much as others may, as the vibe and spirit here are about something completely different.  I enjoy raters very much but, at times, find that ratings for some in the business are a means to an end.  I've actually thought about opting out of them all, but I have many good friends in the industry who make their living that probably wouldn't appreciate that.  There are a ton of constituiencies in this business and it's a challenges at times to serve them all.  We are learning on the fly.

Brian...The Pork Chop is grilled, and then finished in a convection oven.  Then drilzzled with a wonderful barbecue sauce.  Bakled potato and fresh veggies are the norm, but red skins may be in season.  As to its size...slighly smaller than the student section at Notre Dame Stadium, but probably slightly bigger than the "backer".

[Ben Sims]

Literally everyone involved (including quite a few members that were assessed for the course) with building Dismal River Red save the superintendent and irrigation sub-contractor are members of this website. THAT'S the definitive statement about Dismal Red that almost no other golf course can claim. And unfortunately, it has come with a lot of attachments, baggage, and emotion.

[John Kavanaugh]

Literally everyone involved (including quite a few members that were assessed for the course) with building Dismal River Red save the superintendent and irrigation sub-contractor are members of this website. THAT'S the definitive statement about Dismal Red that almost no other golf course can claim. And unfortunately, it has come with a lot of attachments, baggage, and emotion.

I would estimate that less than 5% of the members of Dismal are members of this website.